Please Help!?

[Parq]

I was recently going to buy the G&G CM16 Raider-L but after doing research and reading this detailed post on another forum I was very turned off. Im not sure what to do anymore :banghead: My budget is 230CAN or 280-300CAN if charger is included + mods for it. I was thinking JG or DBoys as it says down here but I dont know what to get, I need something that will last me, something that has a strong frame (Metal/Polymer) and something easily upgradable and overall looks good. Please if somebody could help me by finding something off torontoairsoft.com or blackwidowairsoft that would be great. Im not a pro, moreover a beginner but i dont want to get sucked into the cheap stuff that these retailers try to sell you. Please help, thanks.
Heres the post:

Official Facts and Notes on G&G CM (Combat Machine) AEGs: I was bored and procrastinating homework lol

Note*[If you want to run the CM stock, it will be fine.]

It's $150 for the gun, $25 for a good charger and $25 for a 9.6v NiMh minitype. *read full post to find out how I found these numbers*

This is the most popular setup for beginners using the CM. So for $200+shipping you have a usable beginner gun.

Or, you can get a DBoys m4 for $160. The DBoys comes with a battery and charger and it comes with a full metal body.

Or, you can get a JG m4 for $140. The JG comes with a battery and charger but has plastic externals (worse quality than the CM and an awkward grey color, but not bad).

That being said, of the most popular budget guns the CM is the most expensive to buy and use. Then you go to the parts breakdown.

The CM uses:
- a thin aluminum barrel (can't effectively polish, lots of extra vibration)
- a plastic one piece hopup (fine but weak and loses setting)
- a shell that is off spec for certain receivers
- a shell that is weak even when radiused
- terrible, high resistance wiring
- incredibly weak motor (even for stock motors)
- weak spring guide with no bearings
- weak spring, but functions fine
- terrible piston, very weak and wears down faster than normal
- weird piston head (manufacturing seams KILL air seal)
- thin aluminum cylinder (polishing problems again)
- some have Ebb (Not counting this as a negative, BUT this means the cylinder has a weird port, and THAT is a negative since it worsens the already bad air seal)
- nylon bushings in old models, brass bushings in newer ones. These are weak materials that wear down and cause gear shafts to break. (Newest models might have steel bushings, I haven't checked recently)
- decent gears, not the strongest from guns in the price range, but not bad
- meh cylinder head, it does it's job fine, but it is weaker than others in the price range
- bad air nozzle, same with all budget guns
- gearbox shell screws are on the opposite side of every other company...not sure why
- good tappet plate
- good bucking

The CM comes with really weak parts that wear down prematurely. The catch is; that the CM is tuned better than the other guns in its price range OOTB. This means: if you leave the gun stock it will perform how it does for a long time, sometimes outlasting other guns in its price range. The problem is once you want to upgrade the CM for better performance, you need to replace almost every single piece. The parts inside the gun are too weak for any setup more stressful than stock performance on a 9.6v NiMh, and even with that sometimes the motor burns out and the piston wears down.

On the other hand, both JG and DBoys guns can be bought for cheaper and have amazing quality parts (strength wise) that can take abuse of higher stress setups. Their flaw is that they are not tuned very well OOTB, so QC issues can cause some to fail prematurely.

I ran a 70rps DSG with all stock JG parts on an m170 spring. Only 4 pieces in the gun were not stock JG, those being a SHS 15t piston, siegetek gears, Super Shooter spring guide and a ZCI air nozzle. That's over 80% of the factory gearbox used in a 70rps build. I even used the stock JG motor.

I ran a 55rps DSG on an m170 spring with JG gears, DBoys piston head, DBoys cylinder head, DBoys cylinder, JG tappet, JG miscellaneous small pieces and a JG gearbox shell. The only parts not stock JG or DBoys included a lonex air nozzle, Siegetek DSG, Lonex A2, SHS 15t and a ZCI spring guide.

This is why CMs are not recommended by techs or more advanced players. They run fine stock, but once you want to upgrade they become a money pit, and they were already the most expensive budget gun option.

The one advantage CM guns have is their externals. A nice quality polymer is used and they now come in much flashier options than the competing budget brands, however these come at a cost as well, most notably:
- one piece molded outer barrel (triangle sight is not removable)
- stuck with all plastic externals



[In reply to MaxChairSoft]
While I respect your point, as it does make sense, anybody buying the CM is not going to buy a LiPo with it. 7.4v or 11.1v. A CM is a beginner gun and marketed strongly towards the younger less experienced (in making purchases and in playing airsoft) crowd. That being said, they are buying this due to marketing, and when they notice they need a battery and charger, they are also buying these due to marketing. The "NiMh smart charger" for $25 and a 9.6v NiMh for $25 from an Airsoft retailer are marketed with the CM. If a buyer did the research to buy a properly priced battery and charger, they would have also found out the flaws in the CM and most likely wouldn't be buying it anyway.

Beginners buy the gun, they also chose the accessories. IME this is the most common setup for a CM user.






[In reply to Falco]
Just so there is no confusion, I am ignoring special deals or retailer sales.
Let's say you wanted to buy the same battery and charger for all three options:

A CM is $150 base right? Now investigate:

A JG is $140 with a battery and charger, so even if you also bought the same new battery and charger you have to buy for the CM, you still save $10 and have an extra battery now.

A DBoys is $160 with a battery and charger, so even if you also bought the same new battery and charger you have to buy for the CM, you would only spend $10 more than if you bought the CM, however not only would you have an extra battery, but full metal receivers as well, for only $10 more.

Now, if you didn't want to buy a new battery and charger for the DBoys or the JG, you would save $40-$60 as stated above, which can be used to buy things such as:
- magazines
- BDUs
- Chest rigs, beginner vests, pouches
- attachments for your gun
- internal upgrades for your gun

Also, every single point I mentioned above (internal and gun aspect wise) is a proven fact. I have owned all 3 types of guns and worked on numerous versions of the three for customers. Everything listed is a fact.



[In reply to marine]
It may be different in your experience, however every CM user I have ever met had the same 9.6v NiMh and "smart charger" from an airsoft retailer.

If you do research on which gun, battery and setup to get, I am sure somebody would point out that you can save money by buying the battery and charger from "x" sight instead of from the retailer, however they also would have been recommended a different gun 9 times out of 10.

So, if somebody is buying the combat machine, it is usually due to all the advertising by major retailers or advice from other beginners. This means the battery and charger they get will also come from retailer advertising and advice from other beginners (who got their stuff from retailer advertising...see where I'm going?)

AND, even if you still disagree, which I noted in my above responses as a valid argument, I did another price breakdown at the bottom of my above post accounting for the price of the more expensive battery and charger setup in each situation. You still save money opting away from the CM (except with a DBoys, but I consider metal receivers and an extra battery more than worth the $10 extra).

If you want to argue that I would spend:
$140 on a JG and be done with it (8.4v NiMH + cheap charger = included)
$160 on a Dboys and be done with it (8.4v NiMH + cheap charger = included)
$170 on a CM and be done with it (8.4v NiMH + cheap charger = $20 added to $150 base)

Go ahead, you still save money opting away from the CM even if you get the cheapest battery and charger combination, and you have the exact same setup for each rifle. I just assumed this was self explanatory from looking at the base prices of each gun. I don't see where the argument against "saving money" is here. And since you save money ANYWAY, I assumed I would get my numbers (for original price comparison at the top of this post) from the most common setups for each gun, as that is what the majority of players will encounter.

To review prices:

JG minimum to work = $140
Dboys minimum to work = $160
CM minimum to work = $170

JG average = $140
DBoys average = $160
CM average = $200

JG with extra 9.6v and smart charger = $190
DBoys with extra 9.6v and smart charger = $210
CM with only 9.6v and smart charger = $200

[RainyEyes]

As a beginner, your first gun doesn't matter as much as you think. You're putting way too much thought into a gun that you may or may not decide to keep or upgrade. Get an entry level gun, try out the sport, and if it breaks it breaks, they're beginner and cheap so that's why they're bad build quality; you dispose of it and buy another one.

No one (i don't think) is going to do your budgeting for you for airsoft so it's completely up to you what you want to buy. As for recommendations, can you be a little more specific about what you're looking for? Something that lasts long and is upgradable, but is within 230-300? What will you be doing with the gun and will you be gaming with it, etc?

[ThunderCactus]

The body isn't terribly important. Some brand aren't the most upgradable, they have some fitment issues or proprietary parts.

Doesn't matter if it's a plastic or metal gun, what it performs like stock, etc.
All that REALLY matter is that it's compatible with upgrade parts. Any aspect of it's performance can be modified and upgraded.
You're going to lightly upgrade this gun, then eventually want something better later on regardless.
You'll end up having a $60 smart charger anyway, those wall chargers are junk.

G&G tends to be the preferred starter gun, excellent balance of stock performance, upgradability, decent body, and value.
And honestly, once you upgrade them, there's no performance difference between a $200 plastic G&G and a $600 metal VFC. The VFC is just a tougher bodied gun.

[Parq]

Thanks but should I get the CM16 Raider - L ?

[ThunderCactus]

long or short doesn't matter

[Ricochet]

Plus one for grabbing a G&G. They are quite upgradable, you won't likely be disappointed. Airsoft guns range from $200 - $3000 or so your budget will only get you entry level guns period, that doesn't mean that they are bad, just not as good as more expensive guns. You can however fully change and upgrade guns like a G&G over time, so it's appropriate. As for which variant you want, well it doesn't matter too much, so get what you want. Personally I'd recommend getting a plain M4 and adding what you want. Barrel length only makes guns long and less functional (in most cases), so I'd also reccomend getting the CQB or carbine length ones, such as an M4 over an M16. Your gun will need good batteries, a good charger, good BBs, and magazines. If you're planning on playing you'll need good eyewear and possibly a few other things to keep you safe and keep you in the fight. Never ever cheap out on things you run in your gun or things that keep you safe. Start putting a little extra away. Spending $500 or more to get you bare bones but field ready isn't unrealistic. There's more to airsoft than just owning the gun.

[Parq]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

long or short doesn't matter

Alright, how much would it cost to upgrade though. Fully. Because as I read earlier if you're going to upgrade it, you will need to upgrade it all at once because most of the stock parts wont really work well with higher quality ones. Im just really skeptical about buying one because most of the people that have them have problems as ive seen on forums. And others are saying that G&G are trash compared to CYMA and DBoys. One final thing, is there a DBoys or JG on torontoairsoft.com that you would recommend? If not, what is a good battery + charger to pick up for the raider on amazon.ca or toronto airsoft that is compatable with the raider that adds up to 80$ or less. Its alright if you cant answer these, answering at least one is good enough. Thank you!

[Hectic]

The JG guns are Decent. My first m4 was a JG lasted 4 seasons before the front of the gearbox cracked in the winter. All I did was change the barrel and hop up. If it's possible I would suggest saving up a little more money. You are going to want to buy some batteries (at least 2 if you are going old school) if you go lipo then you'll likely only need the 1 battery and a decent charger. On the up side good lipo are cheap compared to good nicad/nimh
A JG m4 of some sort for under 300 bucks should last a decent while and will take all the aftermarket parts when something breaks.

[Parq]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Plus one for grabbing a G&G. They are quite upgradable, you won't likely be disappointed. Airsoft guns range from $200 - $3000 or so your budget will only get you entry level guns period, that doesn't mean that they are bad, just not as good as more expensive guns. You can however fully change and upgrade guns like a G&G over time, so it's appropriate. As for which variant you want, well it doesn't matter too much, so get what you want. Personally I'd recommend getting a plain M4 and adding what you want. Barrel length only makes guns long and less functional (in most cases), so I'd also reccomend getting the CQB or carbine length ones, such as an M4 over an M16. Your gun will need good batteries, a good charger, good BBs, and magazines. If you're planning on playing you'll need good eyewear and possibly a few other things to keep you safe and keep you in the fight. Never ever cheap out on things you run in your gun or things that keep you safe. Start putting a little extra away. Spending $500 or more to get you bare bones but field ready isn't unrealistic. There's more to airsoft than just owning the gun.

Ive already found stuff for protection and stuff, i just dont want to regret buying myself the cm16 :/

[ThunderCactus]

upgrade fully? anywhere from $200 to $600.
Here are the basics of upgrading:
To get range and accuracy; make sure your compression parts in the mechbox are sealing perfectly. Buy a high quality barrel and a good hop rubber. Done.
barrel group will be around $90-140
compression parts anywhere from $0 to $100

Everything else just alters reliability, rate of fire, and trigger response.
The most common failure of any gun is the piston, $15 gets you an SHS piston that will last the life of the gun.
Generally, just replace parts as they break. Upgradability means the gun is compatible with aftermarket parts. This inherently means that the stock parts will work with any aftermarket parts. So you don't need to upgrade the whole thing all at once.

But the very first upgrade you should do, above all else, is just put a decent hop rubber in the gun. It's the cheapest upgrade possible ($10-$20), you can do it yourself, and it will make the biggest difference in range and accuracy of any upgrade.

[Ricochet]

Upgrading basically works like this; first start with the barrel grouping for shot consistency. Hop-up chamber or unit, high quality barrel, get a proper R-hop mod and possibly a good nozzle. Later if you wish to increase power is when you may have to spend a lot more. Power comes from upgrading your spring and although power isn't the most defining factor it can open up the ability to use heavier rounds which can improve distance and stability. A bigger spring puts more tension on the whole gun and makes it harder to cycle. A gear and shim job will likely be necessary with the possibility of upgrading your gears and bushings. A stronger mechbox shell may then also be appropriate depending. All that extra cycling tension may now need a stronger motor to run it and in turn stronger batteries to power the motor.

Start with the barrel group and work backwards of you need to. A whole set of upgrades can run you several hundred dollars or more, so at the beginning just get what you need.

[Parq]

Alright but how long should it last stock, and should it work properly stock for the first few months?

[BobbyDangerous]

There is nothing wrong with G&G

[redzaku]

Originally Posted by Parq

Alright but how long should it last stock, and should it work properly stock for the first few months?

Mileage may vary, depends on how many times you play or plink in your room
But it should last you 4 months plus

[Parq]

Alright im gonna grab the Raider - L then. Thanks if you have any other info please tell meh.