Anyone else longing for a shift to real cap mags?

[DrDoUm]

Originally Posted by Aper

But that's my type of play and I have my fun that way

You would be surprise to know how many people are more in favor of that type of play.

Sometimes i feel like every players think the other player from that other team just want to run around spraying bbs... while its quite the opposite.

Edit: by the way this is not meant to sound like a direct critic to you Aper, just pointing out what seems as a general state of mind of: "I would rather play more realisticly but I think others won't"

[Aegiis]

Originally Posted by DrDoUm

You would be surprise to know how many people are more in favor of that type of play.

Sometimes i feel like every players think the other player from that other team just want to run around spraying bbs... while its quite the opposite.

Edit: by the way this is not meant to sound like a direct critic to you Aper, just pointing out what seems as a general state of mind of: "I would rather play more realisticly but I think others won't"

This has become less and less common in the last 2 years. Most games are RC, and I haven't seen or heard anyone complaining. They just don't come. Even our Vietnam and WW2 games are RC, with the 20 rounders and what not.

[ViR]

Everything is better in Quebec it seems.. just look at the super friendly chicks!

I think its "unrealistic" to run "real cap" because 1 bb =/= 1 bullet..
You can say I suck, but I wont be able to hit someone's toe sticking out behind a door from 10 meters... but with RS Id just use 2 bullets to shoot thru the door..
Id say ratio should be 10 bbs = 1 bullet, so instead of minimum of 300, it should be 3000bbs.

Regarding GGBRs.. WE AK Mag can take 40+ BBs.. and my Smersh vest can take 12 Mags.. so thats already 480 BBs..

[ThunderCactus]

Like I said it's a matter of accuracy.
I remember the old days and I would agree with you on cheap platforms, 2.5 bbs would equal 1 bullet. It's a bit more fair of a comparison, since at 3000 BBs everyone might as well just have one box mag instead of 42 lowcaps lol
So each mag, 70 rounds, regular old AEG, no problem.

However, if you look at how well I, for example, play with a PTW versus my old M4 AEG, you would then see it's very obvious that I do significantly better right off the bat.
So now, to maintain the same performance I need to limit myself to say 1.5 BBs per bullet.
The same could be said for me using my old VSR-10, wherein better fairness would be achieved with 8-15 round mags instead of 30.

Now we get into personal skill;
Whereas I know from past precedence that with my bolt action rifle I can shoot someone's boot cap sticking past a door frame from 80 feet and through a raised mesh catwalk. Whereas most people aren't that good of a shot.

But chew on this bone; Does having more ammo really make you any better of a shot?
Having an amazing rifle, and practicing with less ammo, will force you to learn the platform faster than knowing you have near limitless ammo remaining.

The same could be said for the platform; wherein an amazing rifle with ammo restriction will force you to up your game faster than a rifle with poor accuracy and near limitless ammo.

It's been my experience that if the rifle is inaccurate, people won't TRY to aim. And if your rifle is accurate, but you have lots of ammo, you won't TRY to conserve it. Doesn't necessarily make you a worse shot, but it doesn't make you any strategically better.

So all that being said, I'll underline my original point;
The users of BETTER guns, polarstars, PTW's, realswords, etc, would do well from having self-imposed ammo restrictions
And the users of inexpensive guns, would likely feel the playing field was more level.

Because even a veteran airsofter with a polarstar or AEG with $600 of upgrades and 3000 rounds on him, can sometimes act like a noob spraying their new AEG. And why shouldn't they, if it's perfectly acceptable within the rules?
I've seen it happen to many veterans. They get a wicked gun, carry as much ammo as they can and just go trigger happy. What holds the rest of us veterans back, I think, is that we need to feel challenged, we need the game to be more difficult.

Not that I'm trying to get anyone to impose special ammo limits, I just think it's very interesting psychology, and a very interesting problem that plagued every sport. People who spend more money, have better gear, just have an unfair advantage compared to those that just can't afford the good stuff.

[Ricochet]

Accuracy is the big playability dynamic, but weapon cost and quality is quite relative. Every game I went to had some sort of ammo restriction to it. Who's better off, the guy with winding mags that holds lots, or the guy who carries several, and has to adjust accordingly. I don't recommend the extra BB because of the accuracy, but more for wind, BB splitting, miss fires, odd ball rounds, etc. One to one, when comparing real steel to airsoft, you only need to decrease range, and everything becomes relative again. That being said, just because I own or don't own an expensive gun, I do like challenge, but promote better equipment, not handicaps. I want "all " players to maximize their effectiveness with training, experience, and equipment. Ultimately better gear and better players, pushes the game further. It's not about money, or domination, but money is a natural cost, and domination is a side effect of falling behind.

Like I said, I wouldn't mind playing real cap style, but even from an expensive well tuned gun, it can be hard to nail your target in a BB or two, when there's a breeze.

[ViR]

I meant to relate more to RS vs airsoft instead of player "airsoft shooting" skill and required BBs.

Sure if you have amazing rifle and you are a super player you only need 2 BBs when others need 30. But if you compare capabilities of RS vs airsoft its not just the decrease in range.
Airsoft guns are less accurate overall.
It might take a couple of hits for enemy to feel the hit and call it.
You cant shoot through cover like doors and tables.

"Real cap" was derived from RS, not "player's skill" and "gun performance". Just like in real life, if you are better shot and you have a better gun you wont need as many bullets as a shitty shot with a rusted gun. If you dont care about RS comparison might as well pull numbers out of thin air.. Real cap is 27 rounds! But its not the case... And since we are comparing to RS we should look at "loss" of "destructive power" along with range and accuracy.

If you are outdoors in a field any decent shooter will hit a man size target from 100feet with a real M4. But in airsoft, because of reasons mentioned above, range, accuracy, player's ability to feel the hit, it will take you more than 1 BB to make a kill. Most likely you will spend first 5 to adjust to the wind and then 5-10 more to ensure person calls hit.
Thats how I guesstimated 10 to 1 ratio.

[Ricochet]

I should've mention uncalled, unfelt, ricochets, etc, that's a very good point. But once again, not being able to pass a BB through wood, brick, etc, can once again be considered relative. Loss of power, accuracy, and distance simply shrinks the playable world, but for all players. A BB can still pass through brush, cloth, cardboard, an accurate shot can still be made between 50 - 300 feet depending on the gun and the elements, and all players must adapt to the physics. I'm attempting to pass through cardboard not wood, I'm attempting a 50 foot shot not 300, and I'm adjusting for wind not distance. It doesn't really matter anyway you slice it. Pure realism is going to be achieved by being as close to real as possible, i.e. real caps. Sport adjustment will take into consideration airsoft/BB distinct dynamics. But if all players on the field are running with the same sportsmanship limitations, then it doesn't matter what the rules are. You can adjust for real life, but many things don't cross over into airsoft, and you're forced to adapt. We all love the simulation elements, but I know my enemy can ignore a hit, I know he will respawn back in with updated knowledge of my tactics and position, and I know that I am not a soldier, nor am I playing one. All of these are integrated directly into the game, and the way I play. For instance, a real soldier may see a target, take a shooting position, look down their sights, fire two rounds, and move on. Except in airsoft his BBs missed because his gun sucks, or wind, or whatever, and I don't have to worry about dying, so I can employ tactics to take advantage of this. Airsoft has great simulation elements, and in most cases the more the better; but it's all about the game at the end of the day. You can have fun limiting everyone to one pistol magazine, and a rubber knife for the whole game if needs be.

[slowbird]

I was told a story once by an old and experienced Airsofter.

Outdoor game in the woods, he spotted an enemy player...player spotted him. They fired a few bursts at each other at a relatively short distance and very little foliage in between them.

Both stopped firing puzzled, and one asks:
"Did I hit you?"
"Nope. Did I hit you?"
"Nope. You know if these were real guns we'd both be Swiss cheese by now."
"Ha! No kidding."
"Wanna call us both hit?"
"Yeah."
Both: "HIT!!!"

I like this story not because these two players were thinking about Real Steel and realism. I enjoy the story because it's a great example of the honor system, fair play and sportsmanship that should be an integral part of every airsoft player.
If I'm part of a team or participating in an event that is full of these types of people...I couldn't really care less if they're running High Caps.

[ThunderCactus]

I figured you were over exaggerating, 10-1 is still pretty darn high. That equates to either 300 rounds a mag, or 43 lowcaps to 10 realcap mags.
12 lowcaps is plenty for even long ops at 840 rounds total. And that's back when I had an M4. That's 2.3BBs per real round
Yes there are definitely limitations compared to real steel, BUT like most people you're comparing airsoft directly against real steel ranges. You can't compare apples to oranges.

If we say, realcaps only, the obvious complaint is the lack of accuracy, or windage problems, or shooting through foliage as compared to real steel.
BUT, a more accurate comparison would be to scale the effective ranges.
So where you say a real M4 has no problem hitting targets at 200ft, an accurate comparison would be to say an airsoft M4 has no problem hitting targets at 60ft.
Scale the range down, and this dilemma becomes much easier to understand, in favor of using realcaps.

So a real M4 has a maximum effective range of about 1500ft, airsoft M4 around 240. Obviously windage, gravity, foliage becomes a big issue for either weapon at both their maximum effective ranges.
The fact that you can see you target well before you're in effective range, or that the real steel counterpart can hit a person further out, really has no bearing on what the airsoft gun is or isn't capable of doing.
The fact is the airsoft gun is at it's maximum range, and so you're only logical real steel comparison would be a real M4 at it's maximum range.
So if the effective range of an airsoft gun is 1/7 the range of a real steel M4, then expect all the windage and gravity faults to be 7x worse with an airsoft gun. You can't expect it to perform 100% perfectly to 200ft if it's maximum range is only 240, just like you can't expect a real M4 to be a pinpoint laser out to 1400ft lol

And so any argument that foliage stops the BBs, windage pulls them off, etc, is moot. The decreased range is a strategic problem, but guess what? You can potentially spot a target before you're able to shoot it with a real steel rifle as well!

Apart from the strategic problems of being so close and concealment becoming cover, all the inaccuracies and other issues of real steel also translate over to airsoft, but you need to scale those errors over 1500ft down to a distance of 240ft, and then it's starting to look a lot more reasonable.

So when you engage a target at 200ft with an airsoft gun, keep it mind it would be similar to engaging someone at 800-1000ft with a real M4
And that's just the unfortunate truth of scaling the physics lol

But that still underlines my previous point of platform quality. A stock M4 using .25s would simply not perform as well as a PTW or polarstar.
So I don't see the issue as being realcaps or not realcaps, but being such gun just won't stand a chance without extra ammo vs such other gun.

I've watched airsoft progress, where it was all very balanced when nobody knew what they were doing gunsmithing because every gun only shot around 80-100ft. Once the competitive people sank in more money and got better upgrades and such, then we started seeing this unfair game mentality from the newer people, but usually just balanced teams out by skill.
So, I guess I answered my own argument and the solution is to just balance out the skilled players like I'm sure we've all been doing lol

[coach]

Originally Posted by slowbird

I was told a story once by an old and experienced Airsofter.

Outdoor game in the woods, he spotted an enemy player...player spotted him. They fired a few bursts at each other at a relatively short distance and very little foliage in between them.

Both stopped firing puzzled, and one asks:
"Did I hit you?"
"Nope. Did I hit you?"
"Nope. You know if these were real guns we'd both be Swiss cheese by now."
"Ha! No kidding."
"Wanna call us both hit?"
"Yeah."
Both: "HIT!!!"

I like this story not because these two players were thinking about Real Steel and realism. I enjoy the story because it's a great example of the honor system, fair play and sportsmanship that should be an integral part of every airsoft player.
If I'm part of a team or participating in an event that is full of these types of people...I couldn't really care less if they're running High Caps.

I've been in that situation a number times. I'd shout back at someone and say "hit. nice shot" and they'd say, "yeah you got me too!" And we walk back to the safe zone and chat laughing about it. Same with sometimes calling hit even if you didn't feel it and probably didn't get hit just for the fact that the other guy had the jump on you. Also recall a couple times where I'd run into someone and we'd both call hit without even pulling the trigger.

There are also the times where the other player cries bloody murder that they shot you first and runs off to continue playing. Sadly for them, they don't realize that there are friends on both teams, and there's the odd time where notifying game control of a cheat is delayed until after, well you probably get where I'm going with this....


Sent from my universe to yours

[Drakker]

If all those spray and pray guys with bad guns would just shoot less and stop wasting so much money on BBs, but buy better guns with that money instead, they would get better faster. ;)

[Ricochet]

I'm with Thundercactus, except for on one point. Never handicap your more experienced players, unless it's for training, or team balancing. New players don't learn, adapt, or excel, if they aren't tested and taught. Not to mention, you want them to look objectively when beaten and say, "my effort is there, but I may have to step up my gear, tactics, and/or camo.".

Ammo limits are a great way to improve shooting skill, and target designation.

[m102404]

Real cap games where BOTH the mag capacity and total ammo loadout are great. Especially if "resupplies" are few and far between, or hard to come by.

Add in games with 450-500fps limits (which allow GBBRs to really work well)...and those limited AS ranges start to stretch out and it supports the limited ammo players to be more precise/discriminant with their shots, making fewer shots count for more. At many of those games there are rarely close encounters because guys are really tuned in to staying further away from each other...which in turn complements tactics, etc...

I much prefer them to the endless resupply, no ammo limit shootfests. TBH, I find myself quite bored at those within 30min or so. Sometimes those are more....fun because of the company despite the game play.

[coach]

Originally Posted by m102404

Real cap games where BOTH the mag capacity and total ammo loadout are great. Especially if "resupplies" are few and far between, or hard to come by.

I agree but have been guilty of being lazy and running 3 mid caps loaded to total ammo capacity.

last time I ran an AEG for 300 rounds max capacity, I went with 3 mid caps x 100 rounds. but then again, when I ran a SAW, I still loaded to capacity with fewer mid caps instead of using a box/drum.

[BioRage]

I should get a polar star and lazer everyone down.

#lolrealcap