Retailers supporting the +18 rule

[GraveTech]

Ok so you are saying that if we legalized drinking, drugs driving and airsoft for people under 18 then they wouldn't do anything stupid with them? Let us look at other examples... driving without drinking/drugs. I have seen a lot of young people do a lot of stupid stuff with cars. Light bulbs... yea I saw a kid in my highschool throwing light bulbs at people. Batteries, matches and lighters, rubber bands, eggs, water baloons etc.. When you are young you can turn a normal everyday object into a tool of stupidity. Legalizing drugs, alcohol and the rest will NOT solve the problem; in the case of drugs it is more likely to draw people into a culture of quick cash and cause more stupidity. Legalizing airsoft guns for people under 18 is likely to move the stupidity from the more cunning stupid kids to all stupid kids. Granted, there are kids who are responsible, but these kids come (more often than not) from parents who are responsible and will take the time and have the interest to make their kid responsible. I know of several players who are underage, they are responsible and you can see this because their parents show up to the games, talk with people and stay while their kid plays. It is not up to the entire community to be parents to every Tom, Dick and Jane teenager (who are 9 times out of 10 not responsible) who wants to play; they have parents, who, if they think their child is responsible enough to get into this sport and they themselves are responsible, will take an interest in this (I think I just said the same thing twice) and coach their child into the sport properly. The only real control we have is at games and events and this is up to the host to decide.

[nizfiz]

Well you redid your post so I'll redo mine. I did not say to legalize drugs and alcohol, again you are manipulating my words. If you deny that teens like what is 'forbidden' then I don't know what to say. Also, airsoft is NOT currently illegal for under 18s whereas drugs, alcohol etc are. You're arguments are all based on false premises so I won't bother to make new ones. For all those reading, you can jsut go back and see my previous arguments and read them for what they are.

I agree with you that responsible kids come from responsible parents. However, when I got into the hobby of rocketry, my parents supported me and drove me there but they were not holding my hand and watching the entire time. They would leave after dropping me off. They weren't that interested, which is fine but that doesn't mean that I couldn't participate responsibly. My parents aren't huge about guns and airsoft but they trust me to be responsible and as a result have given me permission to play and buy an AEG.

[GraveTech]

This is why I don't get into discussions on here... and leave the flames out of this.

[Goldman]

Perhaps parents should take some interest in what their children are doing, then maybe, just maybe some of this stupid shit will stop?

The truth is with a lot of retailers, they are more interested in funds then the policies they claim to enforce. I mean, there is some SERIOUS hypocrasy that is VERY easily seen if someone took 15 sec. to look. I supopse what i'm trying to say is that this has been discussed many times, and threats have been made to "outcast" retailers that do no abide to the 18 + rule, however nothing has ever actually been done, nor will it ever by this specific "community".

PS

Also, airsoft is NOT currently illegal for under 18s whereas drugs, alcohol etc are

Lets see.

The Imitation Firearms Act passed by the province of Ontario prohibits the sale of bb guns, and imitations (IIRC) to minors. Do you think CanTire has all those 18+ stickers just for window dressing

Also, the issue of being 18+ isn't only about maturity, which I would say you lack. However its also about legal culpability. At 18+ you can be arrested, sued etc, as such you are actually responsible for your actions, not mumsy and dadsy.

Instead of attacking GraveTech, why not actually think your own argument through?

[Goldman]

Originally Posted by nizfiz

How can you say that. Do you have a study? The squeeky wheel gets the grease, that's why you hear about teens doing dumb things. Can you imagine how messed up the world would be if ALL teens were doing this crap. The other thing I think you don't understand is that if you make it illegal, kids will just want it more. Someone brought up alcohol. I'm sorry but 16 year olds drink, do pot, crack and far worse things. Making airsoft illegal for kids will just attract them to it because it's 'forbidden' and then they'll do dumb things with them.
Why don't you just try giving kids a place to play, why is it you don't want kids on airsoft fields? You've made it clear that kids do dumb things in public and that might ruin the sport but how does this have anything to do with banning them from airsoft fields? Can someone please answer that question?

Hold on, are you arguing that since 16 year olds can do crack, they can play airsoft?

The general rules and practices didn't just come out of thin air you know. There are players and hosts on this site, who have been playing since before you were born, and they were the, for lack of better words "trailblazers" that raised the community. The current ruleset IIRC was set by folks like Poncho, who hosted and played some of the earliest games in Canada(Well Ontario anyway).

These rules were put in place through practical experience, and as per my previous post, those under 18 still aren't culpable for their actions, and so the rule exists.

[Groombug]

Originally Posted by LaZeDoUt^

From what i hear, they actually have good prices now.

You mean $54.99 for a set of Systema oiless metal bushings?

[nizfiz]

Originally Posted by Goldman

Perhaps parents should take some interest in what their children are doing, then maybe, just maybe some of this stupid shit will stop?

The truth is with a lot of retailers, they are more interested in funds then the policies they claim to enforce. I mean, there is some SERIOUS hypocrasy that is VERY easily seen if someone took 15 sec. to look. I supopse what i'm trying to say is that this has been discussed many times, and threats have been made to "outcast" retailers that do no abide to the 18 + rule, however nothing has ever actually been done, nor will it ever by this specific "community".

PS

Lets see.

The Imitation Firearms Act passed by the province of Ontario prohibits the sale of bb guns, and imitations (IIRC) to minors. Do you think CanTire has all those 18+ stickers just for window dressing

Also, the issue of being 18+ isn't only about maturity, which I would say you lack. However its also about legal culpability. At 18+ you can be arrested, sued etc, as such you are actually responsible for your actions, not mumsy and dadsy.

Instead of attacking GraveTech, why not actually think your own argument through?

You said illegal to buy under 18 where does it say to own? Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke. As for the mummy and daddy being responsible for under 18, I completely agree and I stated it earlier but I'll repeat for you. Then, it is up to the parents to deem whether or not their child is responsible enough to participate in the activity. I went over what airsoft is with my parents completely, they wouldn't just let me go out and do something they know nothing about.

As for that bit where you said I'm not mature, may I ask why? Most people say I'm extremely mature for my age. I tend to spend my time with older people at parties, club activities, and all my interests (like rocketry mentioned above) have very few kids involved. Maybe my interests in more mature activities is my problem but I can't change that. I don't like paintball because I find it too kiddy and almost 'amature' compared to airsoft. I also have a full-time summer job at a private golf course dealing with members, which I've had since I turned 15. Please state your reasons for calling me immature as I see it as an attack on myself.

Hold on, are you arguing that since 16 year olds can do crack, they can play airsoft?

I never said that. 16 year olds cannot do crack, they can own an airsoft gun according to the law. I was arguing that IF you make airsoft illegal for under 18s you will just make it more appealing to those who wish to break the rules. The same way drugs, alcohol etc. tempt teens because they are illegal.

[Groombug]

Originally Posted by nizfiz

You said illegal to buy under 18 where does it say to own? Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke. As for the mummy and daddy being responsible for under 18, I completely agree and I stated it earlier but I'll repeat for you. Then, it is up to the parents to deem whether or not their child is responsible enough to participate in the activity. I went over what airsoft is with my parents completely, they wouldn't just let me go out and do something they know nothing about.

You can argue "mummy and daddy say I'm responsible" until you're blue in the face, but in the eyes of the law until you turn 18, you remain your parents' responsibility. Any shit that you incur will ultimately end up in their lap.

Moreover, this up-and-coming generation is characterized by parents who spoil their children, are often afraid to discipline them, and in general allow their offspring to run amok. What kind of legitimacy does this give any parental label of 'my child is responsible, trust him'.

What exactly are you trying to prove with this misguided crusade? Moreover, are you a masochist who enjoys manoeuvering "through the eggshells of the Airsoft Canada community"?

Originally Posted by nizfiz

Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke.

Originally Posted by nizfiz

I never said that. 16 year olds cannot do crack, they can own an airsoft gun according to the law.

:?

[nizfiz]

lol, I almost consider myself someone who fights for fairness. Everyone one here is against me and that offers a great oppurtunity to try and defend my point of view. I'll admit it's been hard since I'm being hit on all sides but I'm trying to convince people here that teens are not fundamentally bad. I am walking on eggshells here, everyone is ready to pounce on me and tear me to shreads. I'd like to know what percentage of airsofters have kids since I cannot believe they'd say that about their own children. If you start saying my parents' trust in me is misplaced then you are really overstepping your boundries. That's an insult, my parents brought me up properly and I assure they will show up to a game and say it's fine for me to play. But at 16 they shouldn't be expected to watch my every move. I get the impression based on the things people say here that they don't have kids, and in that case you have no right to be judging them.



nizfiz wrote:
Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke.

nizfiz wrote:
I never said that. 16 year olds cannot do crack, they can own an airsoft gun according to the law.

That makes sense to me. Cigarettes are not illegal, crack is. Also, you're nitpicking bits of my argument from different posts and putting it together to give a wrong impression.

[Goldman]

Originally Posted by nizfiz

You said illegal to buy under 18 where does it say to own? Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke. As for the mummy and daddy being responsible for under 18, I completely agree and I stated it earlier but I'll repeat for you. Then, it is up to the parents to deem whether or not their child is responsible enough to participate in the activity. I went over what airsoft is with my parents completely, they wouldn't just let me go out and do something they know nothing about.

As for that bit where you said I'm not mature, may I ask why? Most people say I'm extremely mature for my age. I tend to spend my time with older people at parties, club activities, and all my interests (like rocketry mentioned above) have very few kids involved. Maybe my interests in more mature activities is my problem but I can't change that. I don't like paintball because I find it too kiddy and almost 'amature' compared to airsoft. I also have a full-time summer job at a private golf course dealing with members, which I've had since I turned 15. Please state your reasons for calling me immature as I see it as an attack on myself.

I never said that. 16 year olds cannot do crack, they can own an airsoft gun according to the law. I was arguing that IF you make airsoft illegal for under 18s you will just make it more appealing to those who wish to break the rules. The same way drugs, alcohol etc. tempt teens because they are illegal.

1. There are a boatload of minors in model rocketry, I know becuase I used to be involved in it when I was a minor, and so were the majority of my friends.

2. I dont have the specifics of the law off hand, however your not supposed to transfer pellet guns to minors either, the Adult that purchased it is the one that must be in possesion of it. (perhaps someone with more legal experience can clarify this...Alan where are you?)

3. Maturity. You make claims such as "16 year olds can do crack", then imply because minors break the law anyway, this somehow makes them mature enough to play airsoft? You attack Gravetech for not replying to your whole post, while his post does indeed have merit. When he edits his post you reply rather childishly stating, "you changed your post, now i'm going to change mine". Hell, as many say here, your agruing with our set policies, that itself is a sign of immaturity.

4

I never said that. 16 year olds cannot do crack, they can own an airsoft gun according to the law. I was arguing that IF you make airsoft illegal for under 18s you will just make it more appealing to those who wish to break the rules. The same way drugs, alcohol etc. tempt teens because they are illegal.

...other thing I think you don't understand is that if you make it illegal, kids will just want it more. Someone brought up alcohol. I'm sorry but 16 year olds drink, do pot, crack and far worse things. Making airsoft illegal for kids will just attract them to it because it's 'forbidden' and then they'll do dumb things with them.

You are correct, you never stated that 16 year olds cannot do crack, infact i stated that you stated the opposite. By using this comparison it would appear that your stating, "hell we do more adult/worse things, so why not airsoft?"

Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke

Yes, because they aquierd them in a fashion circumventing a law. That is hardly an argument to be applied to airsoft, same with your other argument about a minor owning AS, but not buying it.

As for parents deciding if their child is mature enough to participate. Boohoo. If your a minor, I can't sue you, I have to sue your parents. You as a minor are not responsible for your actions, and that is the reason you can't get a full G license at 16, its why you can't drink at 16, its why you can't go on tour with the reserve at 16 etc.

[Goldman]

Originally Posted by nizfiz

lol, I almost consider myself someone who fights for fairness. Everyone one here is against me and that offers a great oppurtunity to try and defend my point of view. I'll admit it's been hard since I'm being hit on all sides but I'm trying to convince people here that teens are not fundamentally bad. I am walking on eggshells here, everyone is ready to pounce on me and tear me to shreads. I'd like to know what percentage of airsofters have kids since I cannot believe they'd say that about their own children. If you start saying my parents' trust in me is misplaced then you are really overstepping your boundries. That's an insult, my parents brought me up properly and I assure they will show up to a game and say it's fine for me to play. But at 16 they shouldn't be expected to watch my every move. I get the impression based on the things people say here that they don't have kids, and in that case you have no right to be judging them.

Good for you, you were raised properly. Are you legally culpable? No? Oh crap, come back in two years.

[nizfiz]

First, I'd like to clear up the whole drug bit that people keep tearing me apart for.

I said that teens are often tempted by things that are 'forbidden' to them. I followed that by saying, if you outlaw airsoft for minors, the bad ones will start to seek it for it's 'rebel' appeal. This would lead to more bad behaviour with airsoft guns, as opposed to kids legally playing on a field. I don't think the media and the "GTA soccer moms" as you guys call them will care if an crime with a BB gun was due to a teen posessing it illegally, they will still want to bring airsoft down.

Second, if you can't sue me but have to sue my parents what difference does that make. If your case against me is strong, you should win the suit anyway. Again, my parent's problem not yours.

Finally, saying "16 year olds can do crack" does not show me to be immature. Adults can do crack too and it's illegal. It was taken out of context to make me look bad, if you read my re-re-stated argument above you'll see why I said it.

EDIT: What does all of this have to do with teens shouldn't be able to airsoft. Why sould teens not be able to airsoft in a safe setting? I don't understand what people's problem is with playing with teens.

[Goldman]

Originally Posted by nizfiz

First, I'd like to clear up the whole drug bit that people keep tearing me apart for.

I said that teens are often tempted by things that are 'forbidden' to them. I followed that by saying, if you outlaw airsoft for minors, the bad ones will start to seek it for it's 'rebel' appeal. This would lead to more bad behaviour with airsoft guns, as opposed to kids legally playing on a field. I don't think the media and the "GTA soccer moms" as you guys call them will care if an crime with a BB gun was due to a teen posessing it illegally, they will still want to bring airsoft down.

Outlawed or not, it looks like a Gun. According to current society Guns are bad, therefore Airsoft is bad. Even legal it still has the "rebel" appeal you speak of, plus if it were legalized for minors, it would just make them more readily acessable, and as such the likely hood of them being used in crimes sky rockets.

Think about it for a moment.

[GraveTech]

By setting the age limit we are restricting the number of stupid incidences that occur, thus limiting bad exposure.

[Greylocks]

nizfiz, reality check time.

You just said it; they will do Illegal things. Why should we encourage them to do something illegal in the first place?

Let me tell you something from the perspective of the other extreme of the age group.
No, we cant stop kids from doing illegal things. If they want to break laws, they eventually will.
But we dont have to support them in their illegal activities either.

There ARE ways for under-18 to play, if they bother to follow a few rules.

My question to you is; who the heck do you think gets blamed the first if shit happens? The kid? The retailer? The gaming-land owner? Another player? Or the oldest looking person there?

What you are doing is laying your problems on the back of others and saying they should bend over to accomodate you. Well too flipping bad, wont happen.

Want to drink booze, do drugs, drive, or whatever? Go for it. But I wont supply you with the means to do it. So stop asking us to allow you to do something illegal. It's rude on your part and unfair to all the other folks here.

When you can take legal responsibility for yourself, inculding the consequences of your actions, then you can do what you want.

Until then, just like voting... wait. It wont kill you. Or maybe you can read about the legal ways you can play instead? Want to talk about legal responsibilities? Cool, just dont lay them on us.