Retailers supporting the +18 rule
 

Its been discussed before, but it seems we keep getting underagers on this forum who appear to be in the 14-16 year old range and they already have guns.
You all see it, "how do I upgrade my new aug"....wtf, you had like 6 threads trashed because your like...14 but you "have" and AEG already.
Retails don't seem to have any +18 rules set. All our work to keep things +18 here are usless if retails go and sell them guns anyways.

Personally, at the risk of slowing sales for retailers, I think its better for airsoft in general if the retails work with the ASC age verification system to sell guns, or should have some decent system that they use.

comments

That would do, for direct sales to minors, but I believe most sales would be through a parent anyway, which could get around the system. Would you start having to screen the ones you're verifying?

I believe it could be done, but with screening you're also finding other problems... Though I'm not sure any good parent would lie if you ask them if they plan to give the gun to a minor. Though, it's the good parents that have the responsible kids, it's the bad parents that have the irresponsible kids.

May have to go through a screening of irresponsible 18+ then too.

Though, that would stop direct sales, when the parent isn't involved. That would be a good thing, seeing those kids were most likely to do something stupid with it.

That's my opinion...

I got to witness exactly what kid is talking about at a local sports store.
Mom and two ~12 year old kids (one her's the other one just along for the ride) walk by the "softair" section of the store and immediately the "I want one mommy!" shouts start up. (Did I mention that these people were the type that spoil their kids because they have more money than they know what to do with?)
Anyways, the kid starts listing off all the stuff he wants, he rattles off about $500 of stuff for him and his buddy, his mom relents eventually and starts saying "OK you can have that what else do you need?" The really retarded thing is that the kid actually asks for a mask/eye protection and she says "No, you've got enough stuff, you're not getting a mask." I almost walked up to the lady and smacked her in the back of the head.
Long story short, we'd have a heck of a time weeding out that kind of stupidity/lackadaisical attitude.

^Sounds like the same type of parents who'd try to ban the sport after their kids puts their own eye out.

I know for a fact SpecArms has a strict age verification system, to the point where it'd probably discourage irresponsible parents.

The fact is there are plenty of parents and 18+ verified people out there who will and do lie. So even if you do ask every single person if they are buying for a minor, you still dont know 100% for sure.

A while ago I was talking to a friend who was complaining that she had welts all over her back. when I asked her about how it happened, she said her guy friend had shot her in the back with an airsoft shotgun in his living room from only a few feet away. I later found out that this kid, who was still only 14 at the time, had gotten his dad to go out and buy him an M3 shorty so he could shoot squirrels in the backyard. He then broke the shorty because he was racking on it too hard and tried to take it back for a full refund even though he had had it for at least a good six months already.

Just a story I thought I'd bitch about...

I think for the reseller's incentives to stop selling to minors would be potential lawsuits. I mean even Canadian Tire requires 18+ to buy their airguns when they first carried it, you have to show proof of age and register your name into their system. (Don't know if that is still the case) But there must be reasons why they take such actions, and I think airsoft retailers should follow for the same reasons.

But when you look at retailers, I doubt many 14 yrs old kid have a credit card to make these expensive orders online, so probably paid for by the parents. Even if that's the case, parents might take responsibility of their kids' action, but sometimes I don't think parents understand the magnitude of the damage a simple AEG can do if there aren't safe precautions taken. So really, until the parents KNOW what an AEG is and what it can potentially do, it'll be hard preventing kids coming in possession of airsoft.

It'd be nice to educate the general public about airsoft in effort to get them out of the hands of minors and probably does the sport a lot more good in the long run. But somehow I doubt shows like "This hour has 22 minutes" will actually CARE about it until something big goes down. (sad. I know)

I'm actually ok with having some minors owning airsoft as long as parents approve because I've had airsoft guns since I was 10 all from my mom and dad. I got my NBB Sig Sauger when I was 12 from my dad. I didn't feel the need to go and shoot people back then and I don't feel the need to randomly hunt down people now. I mean you have airsoft games you don't need to live real life grand theft auto everyday...

When I bought my airsoft guns a few months ago I was never checked for my age though. Retailers are in it for the money...I mean the smoke shop near my house sells cigarettes to grade 10 kids...

Pmall for example is like that, except they do kind of discourage them with their incredibly ridiculous high prices. Some kid I know paid $300 for a TM M92F EBB from them.

The solution is simple - people have to vote with their dollar.

If you know of a case where a retailer has sold to a minor and you don't agree with it, show some backbone and take your business elsewhere. Not only that, inform the particular retailer of your stance, that you're not going to do business with them etc.

It may mean that you have to wait a week or two longer for that shiney new 226 or M4, but you'll be able to sleep at night.

I know of concrete cases where a retailer has sold to a minor, or sold to a parent knowing full well where the gbb/aeg will end up, and I have done the above and either import my own accessories or buy from retailers that are honorable.

I completly agree. Out of the 13 or so guns i've purchased in the past 2 years, I have only been asked once to get my dad to speak with the seller before we completed the transaction (just to verify that I was allowed to buy them and stuff)...and actually that wasnt even for a retailer that was for a seller right here on ASC. (before the buy sell rule came into effect) I do believe retailers are in it for the money, and I think airsoft is starting to attract alot more attention from 14-17 range. Fact is, its not too hard to obtain airsoft guns, but its up to the clubs to use there own discretion about who can come play and who cannot.

Erik

I've gotten by many retailers (while I was 16-17, now I am 17), most of above listed. Although I did conduct myself fairly maturely (not to gloat) so don't be to sure if you know a retailer or not. Although its not like I'm angry with them, its a hard business with limited customers as it is.

ASC is the hardest place to purchase underage for me. Although I've been able to come aware of sales of guns through different ways other than the classifieds such as; signatures (which is now banned), Pbase accounts (looking at one for accesories and see pics of guns that are labeled for sale), and MSN names (which is just plain out of the control of admins obviously).

Although I've never inquired any guns on here a good way to rid out two of the loopholes is to force buyers to post something in the For Sale thread that contains the product the customer is buying to be sure that they are age verified. Or just add some kind of feature (mabye something down near the AIM/PM/MSN/webpage things are under the trader rating on the side panel of your posts) to show an age verified member.

The system isn't 100% effective, but it works. It's harder for any kid to just get a gun from a retailer than to just get it from our restricted buy & sell area, simply because it's more expensive through a retailer. Perhaps by paying more, they'll have a bit more respect for their new "toy."

The more I read into this discussion the more I think about the stupid fact that our society is based on numbers. (and that's coming from a mathematician.) There are a number of < 18 year olds that are most likely mature enough (heck, some I would have thought were > 18 if I had not asked) but because they fall below a certain number it's "Sorry, you have to wait"
I understand the argument that if they were truly mature they could wait the additional years but there's a number of individuals who are well beyond the 'legal' age involved that are buying for themselves and don't deserve to own a water pistol let alone an airsoft gun. No verification system is going to prevent those morons from getting their hands on guns.
I'm not saying I condone retailers selling to minors and I have no intention of buying from a retailer that would but I wish there were better checks in place to prevent the dumbassery (to coin a term) that gives the community a bad name.
On a positive note I have heard that the cops will try to trace back the sales of an airsoft weapon if it is seized from a minor. This is far from perfect but at least it's something.

A potential solution would be to only have Retailers in our list (above) who are known and proven to check the age of buyers.
It wont stop the problem entirely, but it may reduce it since we know how well newbies (of any age) search... if it's not there to be found, it reduces the odds.

The other, less popular, solution is to make these entire boards 18+. Then we stop having to argue with kids all day. If they screw up after that, nobody can blame ASC.

well these days i've seen alot of retailers using other stores (i.e surplus stores and shooting ranges) to sell they're guns i bought my G3 from a shooting range and they never even asked for my age so thats another way minors get the guns to dont for get.

I'm sorry to change the subject a little, but it's been stated in this thread that since it's almost impossible for the retailers to make sure that the guns they sell aren't going to underage people, that the responsibility falls on the clubs to not let these people play.

Now I understand the reason for this and before reading this thread I completely agreed with it. However it got me thinking that when a 14 year old kid manages to get his hands on one the first thing he would do (if he were smart) is to try to find a club to go and play the game properly. If we all shun him, he's is a lot more likely to go out and find other "fun" things to do with his new $400 toy than let it collect dust in the closet for the next four years. I think rather than just outright refusing them any support, knowledge, or mentoring we should try to educate these young kids.

If the parents won't do it, would you prefer to teach them yourself the "do's and don'ts" of airsofting, or have them figure it out on their own.

My $0.02, sorry

From what i hear, they actually have good prices now.

Most if not all airsoft fields do have age restriction FYI.

I know they have age restrictions, short of one person I've only played with people over 18, my point is if they are getting the guns so easily what do you think these kids are going to do with their gun when they show up to play and we refuse them. Are they really going to wait another few years or will they want to play with their new toy NOW? (especially for the price they/their parent's paid for it)

Despite my protests my High School friend bought a TM springer from Kuramae for 120 or something like that. He got all cocky and challenged me...I showed him what airsoft was in his basement with my gas TM M19.
BTW that kid was 50 bucks away from a GBB.

I can understand asking for age verification on this forum and msot retailers. However, if some kids under 18 have AEGs that's none of your business as long as they didn't do it by lying. You can try to make it difficult but you can't take the law into your own hands and prevent kids from owning AEGs. What are the laws on ownership? I know in some parts of the US you have to be atleast 14 or 16 in other places but you can't stop me or some other teen from owning an airsoft gun.
I agree with fluffy (for obvious reasons) that you shouldn't push kids away where they'll do something dumb. Give them a place practice it safely.

sorry, but considering nizfiz' reply I feel a slight need to let you all know that I'm 21 and don't really know anyone under 18 who plays or wants to. I'm just voicing my opinion in regards to even a small solution to all the stupid crap kids can do with these things.

I know, I'm just saying I agree with you. However, considering people's attitudes on this forum I understand your post to distance yourself from me (a teen). I do find it quite humorous though "OMG don't show any ties or support to teens trying to airsoft, it'll lower your status in the adult community!!!"

Sorry for putting you in an uneasy position.

Lots of kids will buy EBBs for outragous prices at Pacific Mall.

Why? I know several losers (Mostly chinese and brown) that bought them and pretend they are real: They think them and their friends are 'gangster' and try to intimidate people.

I seriously hope they put a law in place soon prohibiting the posession (Not only ownership) of an airsoft gun for minors (Below 18 ). I'm aware there are plenty of mature 16-17 year old players but the sad fact is, the majority of our 16-17 year olds AREN'T mature enough to handle airsoft. While this may be harsh, sometimes you need to cut off a finger to save the hand.

-VM

If the kids decide to do something dumb, then it further enforce the idea that airsoft isn't for kids. If kids can't act and think in a mature sense, then they shouldn't be allowed to buy an airsoft, much like the reasoning why they can't drive, drink, or gamble.

Yes, a few of the younger age kids who behave very maturely will get punished, but those are still relatively small in percentage.

With that said, I think retailers do have a responsibility to not to sell to kids. Just think in the long run, some 12 yrs old kids who does something stupid with his AEG will probably lead to a complete ban of airsoft.

no no please don't misunderstand.

I just didn't want my post to come off as trying to persuade clubs to lower their age limits for my or anyone underage's benefit. I'm not trying to help underage airsofters I'm trying to help airsoft.

no offense, but personally I couldn't care less if I was shooting a guy(or girl) who was 14 or 41. It makes no difference to me. I just think there are better ways to handle the former than outright shunning.

How can you say that. Do you have a study? The squeeky wheel gets the grease, that's why you hear about teens doing dumb things. Can you imagine how messed up the world would be if ALL teens were doing this crap. The other thing I think you don't understand is that if you make it illegal, kids will just want it more. Someone brought up alcohol. I'm sorry but 16 year olds drink, do pot, crack and far worse things. Making airsoft illegal for kids will just attract them to it because it's 'forbidden' and then they'll do dumb things with them.
Why don't you just try giving kids a place to play, why is it you don't want kids on airsoft fields? You've made it clear that kids do dumb things in public and that might ruin the sport but how does this have anything to do with banning them from airsoft fields? Can someone please answer that question?

thephenom, I know stupid people will be stupid no matter what, I just think that we should try to educate them rather than flat out give them reason (in their minds) to go and do something stupid. How many people over the age of 18 do stupid things they know they shouldn't. Driving drunk, doing drugs, smoking, hell even jaywalking, we do those things because they are convenient and/or fun and we don't feel like waiting or looking elsewhere. Unlike those things though this is something that with a little time and patience from people like us, we could try to reduce the number of incidents

Just like paintball...

Why would you select one part of my argument and leave out the rest, such as the part about drugs and alcohol which are true? Sure you can say "just like painball" but is that because you are not able to contest my entire argument? University students and others in their early 20s do alot of dumb things too, should they be banned from airsoft? And if you bring up the legal responsibilty issue, drop it. Legal responsibilty is for the parents to worry about not you, they are the ones who should judge if their kid is responsible enough.

Ok so you are saying that if we legalized drinking, drugs driving and airsoft for people under 18 then they wouldn't do anything stupid with them? Let us look at other examples... driving without drinking/drugs. I have seen a lot of young people do a lot of stupid stuff with cars. Light bulbs... yea I saw a kid in my highschool throwing light bulbs at people. Batteries, matches and lighters, rubber bands, eggs, water baloons etc.. When you are young you can turn a normal everyday object into a tool of stupidity. Legalizing drugs, alcohol and the rest will NOT solve the problem; in the case of drugs it is more likely to draw people into a culture of quick cash and cause more stupidity. Legalizing airsoft guns for people under 18 is likely to move the stupidity from the more cunning stupid kids to all stupid kids. Granted, there are kids who are responsible, but these kids come (more often than not) from parents who are responsible and will take the time and have the interest to make their kid responsible. I know of several players who are underage, they are responsible and you can see this because their parents show up to the games, talk with people and stay while their kid plays. It is not up to the entire community to be parents to every Tom, Dick and Jane teenager (who are 9 times out of 10 not responsible) who wants to play; they have parents, who, if they think their child is responsible enough to get into this sport and they themselves are responsible, will take an interest in this (I think I just said the same thing twice) and coach their child into the sport properly. The only real control we have is at games and events and this is up to the host to decide.

Well you redid your post so I'll redo mine. I did not say to legalize drugs and alcohol, again you are manipulating my words. If you deny that teens like what is 'forbidden' then I don't know what to say. Also, airsoft is NOT currently illegal for under 18s whereas drugs, alcohol etc are. You're arguments are all based on false premises so I won't bother to make new ones. For all those reading, you can jsut go back and see my previous arguments and read them for what they are.

I agree with you that responsible kids come from responsible parents. However, when I got into the hobby of rocketry, my parents supported me and drove me there but they were not holding my hand and watching the entire time. They would leave after dropping me off. They weren't that interested, which is fine but that doesn't mean that I couldn't participate responsibly. My parents aren't huge about guns and airsoft but they trust me to be responsible and as a result have given me permission to play and buy an AEG.

This is why I don't get into discussions on here... and leave the flames out of this.

Perhaps parents should take some interest in what their children are doing, then maybe, just maybe some of this stupid shit will stop?

The truth is with a lot of retailers, they are more interested in funds then the policies they claim to enforce. I mean, there is some SERIOUS hypocrasy that is VERY easily seen if someone took 15 sec. to look. I supopse what i'm trying to say is that this has been discussed many times, and threats have been made to "outcast" retailers that do no abide to the 18 + rule, however nothing has ever actually been done, nor will it ever by this specific "community".

PS

Lets see.

The Imitation Firearms Act passed by the province of Ontario prohibits the sale of bb guns, and imitations (IIRC) to minors. Do you think CanTire has all those 18+ stickers just for window dressing

Also, the issue of being 18+ isn't only about maturity, which I would say you lack. However its also about legal culpability. At 18+ you can be arrested, sued etc, as such you are actually responsible for your actions, not mumsy and dadsy.

Instead of attacking GraveTech, why not actually think your own argument through?

Hold on, are you arguing that since 16 year olds can do crack, they can play airsoft?

The general rules and practices didn't just come out of thin air you know. There are players and hosts on this site, who have been playing since before you were born, and they were the, for lack of better words "trailblazers" that raised the community. The current ruleset IIRC was set by folks like Poncho, who hosted and played some of the earliest games in Canada(Well Ontario anyway).

These rules were put in place through practical experience, and as per my previous post, those under 18 still aren't culpable for their actions, and so the rule exists.

You mean $54.99 for a set of Systema oiless metal bushings?

You said illegal to buy under 18 where does it say to own? Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke. As for the mummy and daddy being responsible for under 18, I completely agree and I stated it earlier but I'll repeat for you. Then, it is up to the parents to deem whether or not their child is responsible enough to participate in the activity. I went over what airsoft is with my parents completely, they wouldn't just let me go out and do something they know nothing about.

As for that bit where you said I'm not mature, may I ask why? Most people say I'm extremely mature for my age. I tend to spend my time with older people at parties, club activities, and all my interests (like rocketry mentioned above) have very few kids involved. Maybe my interests in more mature activities is my problem but I can't change that. I don't like paintball because I find it too kiddy and almost 'amature' compared to airsoft. I also have a full-time summer job at a private golf course dealing with members, which I've had since I turned 15. Please state your reasons for calling me immature as I see it as an attack on myself.

I never said that. 16 year olds cannot do crack, they can own an airsoft gun according to the law. I was arguing that IF you make airsoft illegal for under 18s you will just make it more appealing to those who wish to break the rules. The same way drugs, alcohol etc. tempt teens because they are illegal.

You can argue "mummy and daddy say I'm responsible" until you're blue in the face, but in the eyes of the law until you turn 18, you remain your parents' responsibility. Any shit that you incur will ultimately end up in their lap.

Moreover, this up-and-coming generation is characterized by parents who spoil their children, are often afraid to discipline them, and in general allow their offspring to run amok. What kind of legitimacy does this give any parental label of 'my child is responsible, trust him'.

What exactly are you trying to prove with this misguided crusade? Moreover, are you a masochist who enjoys manoeuvering "through the eggshells of the Airsoft Canada community"?



:?

lol, I almost consider myself someone who fights for fairness. Everyone one here is against me and that offers a great oppurtunity to try and defend my point of view. I'll admit it's been hard since I'm being hit on all sides but I'm trying to convince people here that teens are not fundamentally bad. I am walking on eggshells here, everyone is ready to pounce on me and tear me to shreads. I'd like to know what percentage of airsofters have kids since I cannot believe they'd say that about their own children. If you start saying my parents' trust in me is misplaced then you are really overstepping your boundries. That's an insult, my parents brought me up properly and I assure they will show up to a game and say it's fine for me to play. But at 16 they shouldn't be expected to watch my every move. I get the impression based on the things people say here that they don't have kids, and in that case you have no right to be judging them.



nizfiz wrote:
Minors can't buy cigarettes but they can smoke.

nizfiz wrote:
I never said that. 16 year olds cannot do crack, they can own an airsoft gun according to the law.

That makes sense to me. Cigarettes are not illegal, crack is. Also, you're nitpicking bits of my argument from different posts and putting it together to give a wrong impression.

1. There are a boatload of minors in model rocketry, I know becuase I used to be involved in it when I was a minor, and so were the majority of my friends.

2. I dont have the specifics of the law off hand, however your not supposed to transfer pellet guns to minors either, the Adult that purchased it is the one that must be in possesion of it. (perhaps someone with more legal experience can clarify this...Alan where are you?)

3. Maturity. You make claims such as "16 year olds can do crack", then imply because minors break the law anyway, this somehow makes them mature enough to play airsoft? You attack Gravetech for not replying to your whole post, while his post does indeed have merit. When he edits his post you reply rather childishly stating, "you changed your post, now i'm going to change mine". Hell, as many say here, your agruing with our set policies, that itself is a sign of immaturity.

4You are correct, you never stated that 16 year olds cannot do crack, infact i stated that you stated the opposite. By using this comparison it would appear that your stating, "hell we do more adult/worse things, so why not airsoft?"

Yes, because they aquierd them in a fashion circumventing a law. That is hardly an argument to be applied to airsoft, same with your other argument about a minor owning AS, but not buying it.

As for parents deciding if their child is mature enough to participate. Boohoo. If your a minor, I can't sue you, I have to sue your parents. You as a minor are not responsible for your actions, and that is the reason you can't get a full G license at 16, its why you can't drink at 16, its why you can't go on tour with the reserve at 16 etc.

Good for you, you were raised properly. Are you legally culpable? No? Oh crap, come back in two years.

First, I'd like to clear up the whole drug bit that people keep tearing me apart for.

I said that teens are often tempted by things that are 'forbidden' to them. I followed that by saying, if you outlaw airsoft for minors, the bad ones will start to seek it for it's 'rebel' appeal. This would lead to more bad behaviour with airsoft guns, as opposed to kids legally playing on a field. I don't think the media and the "GTA soccer moms" as you guys call them will care if an crime with a BB gun was due to a teen posessing it illegally, they will still want to bring airsoft down.

Second, if you can't sue me but have to sue my parents what difference does that make. If your case against me is strong, you should win the suit anyway. Again, my parent's problem not yours.

Finally, saying "16 year olds can do crack" does not show me to be immature. Adults can do crack too and it's illegal. It was taken out of context to make me look bad, if you read my re-re-stated argument above you'll see why I said it.

EDIT: What does all of this have to do with teens shouldn't be able to airsoft. Why sould teens not be able to airsoft in a safe setting? I don't understand what people's problem is with playing with teens.

Outlawed or not, it looks like a Gun. According to current society Guns are bad, therefore Airsoft is bad. Even legal it still has the "rebel" appeal you speak of, plus if it were legalized for minors, it would just make them more readily acessable, and as such the likely hood of them being used in crimes sky rockets.

Think about it for a moment.

By setting the age limit we are restricting the number of stupid incidences that occur, thus limiting bad exposure.

nizfiz, reality check time.

You just said it; they will do Illegal things. Why should we encourage them to do something illegal in the first place?

Let me tell you something from the perspective of the other extreme of the age group.
No, we cant stop kids from doing illegal things. If they want to break laws, they eventually will.
But we dont have to support them in their illegal activities either.

There ARE ways for under-18 to play, if they bother to follow a few rules.

My question to you is; who the heck do you think gets blamed the first if shit happens? The kid? The retailer? The gaming-land owner? Another player? Or the oldest looking person there?

What you are doing is laying your problems on the back of others and saying they should bend over to accomodate you. Well too flipping bad, wont happen.

Want to drink booze, do drugs, drive, or whatever? Go for it. But I wont supply you with the means to do it. So stop asking us to allow you to do something illegal. It's rude on your part and unfair to all the other folks here.

When you can take legal responsibility for yourself, inculding the consequences of your actions, then you can do what you want.

Until then, just like voting... wait. It wont kill you. Or maybe you can read about the legal ways you can play instead? Want to talk about legal responsibilities? Cool, just dont lay them on us.

I never argued that airsoft should be made legal for minors to buy, I believe the current system is effective (if it works the way it's supposed to). It gives minors who are responsible enough a chance to play anyway. I was simply arguing against the full outlawing of airsoft for minors.

To greylocks (and others):

I don't want to play illegally, I don't do or want to do drugs, I am not promoting illegal behaviour in teens. I realise some of you may have understood that since this argument has gotten so long. I am simply arguing what I stated above in this post. Earlier in this thread people said airsoft should be outlawed for all minors, all my arguments were simply disagreeing with that. What happened in the later posts is I was defending everything I said so the initial message was taken out of context.

I realize that I will have to wait 2 years to be fully accepted in this community but in the mean time, I'm trying to disuade people from this idea of banning airsoft for minors. Some people said that minors shouldn't be allowed to play, I simply think that is unfair.

Stick to one argument, and not flip-flop. You go from stating that minors should be allowed to play, which they are, then you start talking about how its not illegal for minors to own airsoft, and to own, one must somehow aquire. You then argue that minors should be allowed to play.

Pick one argument and stick with it, don't try to reverse yourself when you've lost. Accepting defeat is a mark of maturity, which you claim to have.

Technically speaking, a minor cannot own an BB.Airsoft gun, because IINM, it is illegal for them to either purchase one, or to have one transfered to them.

That was your first post. There you stated that, "you can't stop me or some other teen from owning an airsoft gun". Given the title of the thread it would imply that you were initially arguing that minors can and should be able to purchase AS.

PS - Stop editing your msgs immediatly after you post tthem, makes it much harder to reply to the post.

Personally I think minors should stick to paintball, it's less likely to get them shot. can't say that it's less likely for them to do something stupid though, I know when I was a minor i knew too many kids who thought they were invincible and untouchable until they turned 18.

Go out be a kid, you'll have plenty of time to play adult games when you're older.

You're slow... It already IS illegal for a minor to own a Replica, or use one, without the legal owner present.

What you are also extremely slow to understand is the concept of Legal Responsibility. The is the entire set of Laws that allow you to take upon yourself the results of your actions, good or bad.
Until you are 18, like it or not, you are shoving the consequences of ALL your actions onto someone else. Think that's fair?

So get your parents involved, really involved, in person. That is the only way you'll do anything for now.

Another clue, hopefully the last one... when about FOUR pages of replies tell you the same thing, maybe there's something to get from it? Like a hint that you are wrong and should learn?

Right now my best suggestion for you, if you want to play anywhere, is to step back, stop typing, read the rules, and follow them.
Those like you who have read and followed those rules play today. The others are gone.
It's your choice, so show some of that wonderful maturity you claim to have and do what's right.

I know that bugle call... it sounds like... retreat.

Welcome to life outside of the Parental Protective Bubble.

Many things are unfair. Boohoo. If you're going to campaign against everything that is unfair, you better be prepared for a lifetime of disappointment.

But you probably wouldn't do that. It seems you are only interested in arguing for what will ultimately be a personal gain.

Vipamave wrote:
What does the color of skin have to do with anything? Sorry if it's off topic, but just had to bring this up.

^I therefore retire from this argument. I'm not against the rules, I just don't want them to get any harsher. Also, I'll probably meet greylocks and don't want to make a complete ass of myself. I've read the rules, I'm just an argumentative person and a sensitive one. I feel that people here don't think teens and airsoft should mix, I'm arguing they should.
Just to finish this up, what is it I'm wrong about? I promise to post nothing about it afterwards, I just want to read it.


BTW: groombug, you belong to my generation, not Gen-X

Small animals- The other white meat.

At least he wasn't going for babies...

Baby the other other white meat...
Babies its whats for dinner...

~fat bastard

it should be kept 18 plus, but exceptions should be made. if a 15 year old kid can act mature enough to play, then under the club's descretion he should be considered. it's hard for me to wait to play but if tose are the rules . . .

If you cant get your parents involved, dont ask us to replace them. Those are the rules.

Waiting is the best part! :D

Theres the chinese FOBs who think they are all powerful and mighty.

and then....

Theres the brown gangster-wannabes
-----
Lots of FOB and brown gangs here (specifically chinese and east-indian, I already know of 6 within Milliken Mills High via a conversation with the principle, K. Merryweather)

Racism or not, I (nor anyone else I know) have not been threatened with "This guy wants to get shot" by a white kid (Even the spoiled ones that own an airsoft pistol). Could just be this area (Where caucasian students are a minority) but even when I lived back in the US (where caucasian students are the majority), very little gang-related violence was evident.

______
By your logic, outlawing Airsoft for minors = attract them to airsoft. Funny

Public indecency (Running around outside in the nude) is outlawed. I don't see anyone running around in the buff (Often...).

It's all about legal liability. If I shoot some 14-year-old's eye out because he took his goggles off in the middle of a firefight, as an adult I am 100% responsible, not the cockholster kid who took his goggles off. That is the reason I will not play with minors - not even my 17-year-old son. A waiver doesn't mean shit in this country - our law does not allow for someone to completely waive their personal rights away. Additionally, a minor cannot sign a legal document, so even if they signed a waiver, it doesn't mean shit.

I'm not going to be the one to get fucked by the system. Is this unfair to minors who still want to play? Yes it is - and too fucking bad for them. They can grow up, become able make adult decisions for themselves and take legal responsibility for the consequences of those decisions, and then cry at home when they get their eye shot out and I won't lose a second of sleep over them suffering for their own stupidity.

Ok this is kind of getting ridiculous. You know with all these nifty new ways to weed out a couple of minors, we end up causing ourselves more trouble just to prevent a tiny fraction of bad. You know what this all sounds like......our government with it's gun control BS. All these efforts and are they really helping....yes they do here and there where it is obvious like buying on ASC but that is really as far as you're gonna get in stopping minors from getting guns.

Another thing I don't see is, what's the big deal?? I want someone to tell me when the last time you heard a Canadian news report of a minor who took a mainstream airsoft gun into public and either shot people or caused a huge disturbance and poilice were called and full blown airsoft was announced......

I know most younger people are idiots, but being 18 isn't your key too maturity. I've heard more instances of 18-25 year olds being involved in REAL airsoft relate bullshit.

This "problem" has seemed to have done some healing on it's own thanks to all retailers though. Ever notice how pretty much every one of them has stopped selling cheap springers and most EBB's? Those would post the most threat out of any other for being so cheap.

Seriously, I think this age verification is quite good enough. It works all around for the most of people. Minors have a next to immposible time getting cheap guns off this site and retailers arn't fucked over by this system by losing sales to legit adults who don't want to bother with it.

^That's cool, making it difficult is fine and smart. It's just making it impossible that scares me.

Are most young people really idiots? I'd say one can find idiots anywhere and in any age group.

Exactly.

As for legal, trust me....experience in the day told me the cops give as much shit about an airsoft gun as they do about J-walking or someone not wearing a helmet on a bike who is under 18.

If someone under 18 fucks up, it's their parents mess to clean up so who the hell cares?

The only problem I see is if some soccer mom decides to go apeshit and get attention called to airsoft when junior shoots out brother Billy's eyes.

I'm curious has the so called soccer mom going apeshit to get airsoft banned ever happened? I hear about that scenario all the time but have there really been any big incidents with airsoft in Canada?

Sorry GT, but to present another point of view here... (not saying you are wrong either), but if an "adult" gets dumb... then airsofters as a whole look bad.... and feeds the publics perception that we are war loving nutcases. At leats when a minor does it... it can be chalked up to "immaturity".

tsuru, you hit the nail head on! Becoming 18 is not a right of passage - it's merely a number that our society has lumped on itself to be able to make people legally accountbale to itself - for the purposes of prosecutions, lawsuits, etc, when people do dumb things. As I've said in a previous thread, you can stay home alone at 12, run away from home at 14, quit school and start driving at 16, etc - all before you become 18. Personally, I'm more afraid of some kid driving "daddy's" car than a kid with an airsoft gun.

To put it another way, is a man who uses an airsoft gun to rob a bank anymore mature than a kid of 12 years old? Who would you be more concerned with? What about the guy the Toronto police shot in the hospital emerg? Would you abdicate giving him an airsoft gun because he's over 18? No, because he's mentally unstable? Perhaps, but you'd need to get to know him to be able to say that. Same goes for young people, you can't group all of the minors together when you don't know them. I know a player that is under 18, and not only is he mature, I've seen him be a real pain to the opposing team at games! There is no maturity scale to measure a persons level of mental fitness on.

Oh, how about being able to join the military at 16 now?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we use "real steel" in th CF?

I'm not for or against action of any kind to the retailers, I'm only trying to present an alternate viewpoint.

Getting back to my original position from several hours ago (sorry, work). What I was asking before that I think may have encouraged nizfiz a bit was that which do you guys see as worse, having to play alongside all of these so called "immature" minors, possibly even taking one under your proverbial wing as you would any other noob, or sending him away to find some other form of "fun" that he can have with his new $400 toy.

And if you guys really want to bring drinking and drugs and driving into it, sure why not.

Would you prefer there to be an organization (CAA and affiliates) that takes 14 year old kids with their learner's permits or whatever the hell it is now and teaches them to drive by instructing them and working with them. Or do you think it would be better to hand them the manual and the keys and say "Have fun!"

And would you prefer that there were organizations (AADAC, schools...etc) that could talk to teens about drinking and drugs before or while they take them. People to educate them about the possible problems and hazards associated with alcohol and drugs. Or do you think it would be better to just stick to the 18+ rules in liquor stores and just turn a blind eye to some dousche who happens to boot for some minors.

Personally if "society" thinks that it's ok to give 16 year old kids CARS! I don't think even the "danger" of airsoft is anywhere close to the destructive power of a vehicle.

And what's this crap about voting? They aren't 18 so they can't vote, fair enough, but comparitively according to your arguements (to clarify, not directly but when used in this circumstance) they shouldn't have anything to do with politics at all either??

A good friend of mine (who is now 19 and plays airsoft as much as I do) was a competitive speed shooter at 16!!! With Real Guns!!!!! yet according to all of you assuming he was still the same age he wouldn't be allowed to play with Fake Guns!!! because you all decided so?

Anyways that's about all I've got and I'm sorry if I anger anyone, I'm just trying to open your minds a little since you all seem dead set on your case.

Vipamave wrote:
You may be right that around your area there's a problem, but to lump all brown or chinese people under one "gangster" wannabes is just wrong. I think you should really rethink what you are saying here. Color of skin, race doesn't matter period.

He may have shot the guns; but he legally did not own them, nor could he have aquired any new ones. Airsoft SHOULD be the same way. I'm not saying there are exceptions; there are plenty of them.

But when you have a shitload of new players who can't seem to grasp the idea of research or even minor effort, and then turn around and shit on anyone who tries and points them in the right direction, then i'm not surprised that we don't all seem dead set on not allowing minors, let alone 'taking them under our wings'. Yes, there is the occasional good apple amongst the barrel full of rotting ones, but when the rotting outnumber the good, it's very hard to paint a positive picture on the youth of today.

A car is one thing; a replica of a firearm is another. Airsofters are watching airsofters backs to keep airsoft alive in canada. Cars will never be banned and the same thing with Paintball (it's already a sport for godsakes). Airsoft however IS in a grey zone and could easilly be abolished if some fuckhead tries something stupid with a cop, then some soccer mom goes and starts a shitstorm over it. It's not that hard to imagine.

Personally I don't normally give a rats ass about somebody until they prove that they're actually worth the time and effort and have a WILLINGNESS TO LEARN.

The color of the people doesn't matter that's just the color they happen to be.

I happen to live in a yellow house, but some people say it's more of a cream off-white color, the color of the house doesn't matter it's still my house.

It's one way to describe things, I'm sure it wasn't a personal attack

How do you know if they have this "willingness to learn" if you turn them away at the door?

(oh and several of the guns were his, the rest were his father's)

But I think the main point of the whole supporting 18+ rule is that when a person is 18, he/she can be held LEGALLY responsible for their doings. Anything goes wrong at a field, they can be PERSONALLY be held responsible, and not their parents.

YES, their parents can agree to take responsibility for their children's actions, but HEY, in reality, it's easier to point fingers to other people/things than to take the blame for your children's actions. (Just look at the bs examples of people/parents blaming violence on video games) I'm not saying all parents are like that, there are some responsible ones, but it can't be said for all of them.

And gosh, this is turning out to be an ethics debate. lol

Okay; IIRC Canadian gun laws prohibit gun sales to minors (if not the guns, then at least the ammunition). No ifs, ands or buts.

"Willingness to learn" is a trait that is very easy to put to the forefront. Put effort into something you're going to spend several hundred dollars into. Don't as stupid questions and don't bitch back. It's that simple. I'm still a noob, but I don't talk back to people, especially if they're offering helpful information.

Whereas.. Almost every single day ASC is flooded with stupid questions like 'Wot Am Best Gun!?11' and 'Can I import from USA???'. You'd think that if you're buying a hundred dollars or more for a gun that you could at LEAST check if it's going to make it into the country. Even the caveat emptor of not guaranteeing the item arriving in Canada should make one wonder.

And as far as turning people away at the door; I reinterate. The youth of today are on the whole, stupid and untrustworthy. I don't like painting the picture, but unfortunately it gets painted by itself. I don't mind the fact that airsoft is turning away possibly the one good person in the crowd of morons (if he was a good airsofter he'd probably actually follow the advice and procure the guns when he's actually of age to do it), it not only protects airsoft's future, but weeds out the morons and gangstas as they'll probably take up something more unsavory in the meantime.

Ok I've read all the posts in this thread, many good many bad. Now perhaps I can help shed some light on the subject if not the reason for the 18+ rule. As a child and young adult your body is developing, growing and changing this also pertains to the brain and it's reasoning, judgement and other skills. There have been extensive studies done on the subject. As a child and especially as a teenager with the added stress of puberty and a sudden influx of hormones your body is not used to dealing with, the developing brain is not always capable of properly assessing a particular situation, scenario, outcome etc.
As a result of this judgement can be impaired (for lack of a better term) This is one of the prime reasons behind the young offenders act, kids do stupid things because your brain doesn't necessarily know how to properly assess and understand the possible consequences of your actions. The law takes this into account and does not necessarily want to "brand" you a criminal for the rest of your life for a youthful indiscretion, however no one wants to see personal or public safety put at risk because of a lack of foresight on a person or groups behalf so restrictions can be placed upon that person or persons. Hence no drivers licence until 16 even then there can still be restrictions, no drinking until the chosen age of your Province and no purchasing, owning, or unsupervised use of airguns or replicas.

A very quick and obvious possible scenario, Police get a gun call (what prompted the call really doesn't matter the police response will be the same) they tell the person to drop the gun, the person is a 16 year old, he took his new airsoft ak90k asswupper signature series he is so excited about to show a friend, he is surprised at the fuss the police seem to be making and thinks there must be some misunderstanding and doesn't want to drop his brand new asswupper on the pavement and possibly break it. He turns to explain to the police and inadvertently points the gun without thinking, the officer has no choice but to interpret this as threat and failure to comply, to protect himself and fellow officers he shoots the boy.
This kid didn't intentionally do anything wrong, but he did a lot of wrong things and ended up in a situation that killed him and could potentially kill airsoft. Parents groups outraged over the senseless death and similar one in another community not to mention the U.S. lobby their members of parliament to ban these useless guns that have no redeeming quality and are getting their perfect children killed.

We've read it here a thousand times, I know I'm under age BUT I just want to play in my yard with some friends, my neighbours know me and there cool they'd never call the cops.
I know I'm under age BUT I live in the country and the cops don't care.
WTF me and some friends were just going to skirmish in the woods out of town and we kept our guns hidden until we just about got there and the cops showed up and confiscated our guns WTF.

I realize the shooting scenario could just as easily happen to a careless or ignorant adult, the difference is if a adult is shot there is not going to be the same public outcry as when it happens to a child, why ? because as a society we are expected to look out for and protect the children as they can not be held responsible for their actions unlike adults. And until you are 18 under the law you are considered a child in this country like it or not, because you don't necessarily have the ability to make the right choices and so someone else is responsible for your ass. If you're over 18 and make a bad choice, tough luck deal with it.

And perhaps that is why legally you have to be 18+ to purchase or own a airgun or a replica gun, and if you're under 18 you need adult supervision any time you wish to use one.

The law and rules have to cover the majority not the minority and the majority of under 18 do not necessarily have the skills to make certain decisions, that doesn't mean a 15 yr old can't show proper judgement it's just not necessarily the norm.

I hope this is coherent as I've been up for 23 hrs and I may not be conveying my thoughts as clearly as desired.

Fluffy and others. The primary problem here is underage players who decide to break the rules. They tend to whine the most too.

If a 16 year old teenager does the following; gets parental consent, gets parental direct supervision, has his/her parents buy and retain property of the guns at all other times, there is NO problem. Those guys DO play, they have no problems at all.
What we see here the most are kids who dont do any of this.

We see kids who manage to lie to get a gun, then expect us to welcome them with open arms. If we dont, we're big meanies and they scream they will go play anywhere they want. Those are the kids I have a problem with. They shove their problems on the back of someone else and get off with a slap on the wrist.

Adults who do the same? Yeah, there's a fair amount of those too. I have a super simple solution for that; 911. Let the legally allowed experts deal with them. They cope with the consequences of their own screw ups.

Now can all of you kids TRY to follow the existing rules AND play instead of trying to find loopholes? If you follow the rules, there will be NO PROBLEM.

Yup. I can give you 3 serious incidents in Manitoba alone inthe last 10 years.

We had a kid (17) a couple of years back before the 18+ rule who got ahold of a GBB. When his mom found it she went apeshit. She found out about our local association and looked up one of the members - not even the one who sold her kid the gun - and went to his place of business and started screaming at him in the middle of a public mall about how he could condone selling illegal weapons to minors. She did this in front of dozen of witnesses and could have cost this person their job. She was set to call the cops and have him arrested in his place of work.

Additionally, a few years back we had the police pick up a kid (18 ) who decided it would be a good idea to take his Mac10 airsoft into his girlfriend's apartment under his coat. A neighbor saw, called the cops, and the two of them were picked up by the cops as they left her apartment to head to dinner with her parents, IIRC.

Then, of course, there was the (now banned) ASC member 2 years back that got busted with a substantial airsoft collection while they were dealing large quantities of dope. You can, of course, look up all these threads using the search button.

The underlying problem is simple. Minors present a significant legal risk for the owners and occupiers of the property, the organizers of the game, and other players. If a minor gets seriously injured at an airsoft event, someone is likely to have to pay big.

Waivers do not reduce this risk for having a minor participate, no matter who signed it. Having the parent on site with the child reduces the risk, but does not eliminate it.

Is there some compelling reason I should risk my house, car and investments so an underage player can participate in this sport?

LD

it also seams that here in ontario, the IQ of young adults is getting lower every year, same with their maturity level. my town is full of hippies the ones that love flowers and stuff, if a 16 was caught in public with an airsoft gun in this town shit would be all over the news with "kids that kill arent nice" and " ban guns from our town" the last one I've heard lots of times from local meetings.

See, all I was asking is why some clubs refuse to do this.

Sammy, your scenarios are much more likely to happen when a kid (who bought an AEG regardless of any of you, it does happen) isn't given proper instruction about the safety of using/transporting it. And now many of you are going to say "but it's common sense" or "let the parent's teach the kid"

What may seem like common sense to you and I is because we're involved in it. Ignorance doesn't mean the kid is stupid, it means he's uninformed.

What if it's a single mother or something, who in her mind bought her kid a toy? She wants to participate in the consent and supervision of her child as she would during any "physical" or "potentially dangerous" event. But as far as airsoft goes, she herself doesn't know or care about it at all. This is not the person we want teaching them how to use/transport their gun.

A lot of you seem to think that I'm saying to "give all the kids a gun who wants one" or "make it legal for kids". Frankly I couldn't care less, it doesn't matter to me if I'm shooting someone who is 14 or 41.

If a kid starts playing airsoft in a park with his friends because one of us shut the door on his face the day before, whoever it may have been is in no position to whine or complain about the outcome.

"All the is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

Often it's an insurance issue.

That's bullshit. There are laws in place that prevent minors from owning airguns, and as a direct result, from playing airsoft on their own. Whether or not the minor agrees with the law is completely irrelevent.

Just because a 14-year-old wants to drive my car and the law (and myself) says he can't doesn't mean I have no reason to complain about the outcome when he steals my car and crashes it.

Fluffy, because there's no reason why clubs should have to pay hundreds of dollars extra per month for insurance, or as another person said; why should I risk all I own if mommy sues me?

Not worth it. The laws are already against it, nobody should have to take on the extra responsibility and costs.

It's all about liability, and the right to refuse to be responsible for a minor that is not your child.

I have no doubt this threat could continue like it has been for another 6 pages! So just to get imput from a retailer! In regards to the initial issue of this thread. I have been doing this a very long time. I can tell you 100% speaking for us (members of Airsoft Alliance Canada, which consist of Double Edge, Rangers and M-1), that we have very strick rules set in place to ensure any airsoft we sell don't fall into the hands of minors. Dispite these rules, and safegaurds, has this happened to us.. absolutely! Will it happen again? I'm sure it will. The realality of it is, that if someone 16, or 17 wants one, they will get one. Being mostly an online seller, I'm sure they have friends over 18 that will do the transaction for them. There is only so much we can do as retailers. Now, I assure you that we do take it very seriously, and do our absolute best to prevent this, but it does happen, and there are ways around it no matter how you go about it. As for younger teens, then yes, we also have parents that purchase these for there children. We do speak with the parents, we do our best to make sure they realize the responsibility they are undertaking, and what happens after that, is completely out of our control. And yes, we have even refused to sell our products to legal parents/gaurdians in a few circumstances where it was very clear there would NOT be any responsibility taken by that parent/gaurdian.

We have had online credit card fraud! We have had people lie to us, produce false ID's, ect..... If you look at the over-all big picture, I'm sure you will find that we as a Canadian market, does very well. If you take the total airsoft sales over the period of one year in the Canadian market, and then the percentage of minors getting their hands on these products, I would guess it would be a VERY, low number (My guess would be in the 1% - 3% range, and it's just my GUESS - unproven.. opinion).

Although I can't say 100%, I can say with confidence that the majority of other ESTABLISHED retailers from what I have seen over the past 4 or 5 years in our market are also very responsible in this area, and for sure do their part to minimize this from happening. I of course speak of the retailers that have proven themselves, and actually run their company as a serious business (Tru, Spec Arms, 007, Rangers, M-1 ect..).

Again, just had to get something in here from an actual retailer. Just my personal opinion, coupled with my experiance of selling for the past 5+ years. As for the rest of the issues in this thread that have evolved...... Not even going to go there:)

i apologize, ill stop

Sure there are responsible kids. Nizfiz you forgot though all of us were once one. A child who is under 18 is not responsible for there own actions. The responsiblity falls on teh parents. So if johnny dumb ass goes to an airsoft game and does something stupid its his parents fault not his. If he goes into the street and gets shot it makes us look bad. Child with replica weapon is killed by police makes an awesome headline. As a kid you think your invincible and i know this cus i was one not to long ago. It wasnt until i joined the army and mangled the living shit out of my spine did i realise how wrong that was. I can remeber when i was younger firing traveling moon whistlers out of dollar store guns at eachother. Guess what people do stupid shit.


Edit> Greylocks clearly stated an airsoft gun falls under replica status and you gotta be 18 to own one or have the owner with you. READING IS A SKILL.

You guys should listen to what Gralocks says, it's all in the criminal code and the firearms act. Those who like to live in denial and don't want to believe him, take a look for youreself.

Warning: it will involve searching and reading, so the spoonfeed lazy butt-holes will be displeased...

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/srch.cg...d=203284&exp=7

im done

Indeed? Let's see...I've been a High School teacher for over 10 years, so I CAN judge an entire generation - I deal with kids up to 50 hours a week, and I see all the moronic stunts they pull all day long. I also have a son that's older than many of the members of this forum. I get to judge.

To address you comment about adults vs. minors in general, adults are considered to be responsible for their own actions; minors are not. If I intentionally do an airsoft drive-by and get caught, I'm going to jail and likely going to civil court for damages. A minor will get released to their parents, and nothing much will come of it from a legal standpoint because (as has been said multiple times, but you aren't getting it yet) minors are not accountable for their actions.

I fail to see why you consider my parallel to a child breaking the law, whether it be with an airsoft gun or an automobile, dumb. You yourself admit you "don't think there are laws against minors handling airsoft". Guess what, sunshine? There are laws, and you don't know them. Ignorance of the law is not going to get you much sympathy from the members of this forum nor the police or legal system. Virtually every major city in this country has bylaws making it a crime to discharge airguns within city limits - city limits includes parks and your backyard if you live in the city, where many teens play . The Province of Ontario has a law that prohibits the ownership of airguns by anyone under the age of majority - that's 18; not 16, not 17. 18. There are laws about who can and cannot drive an automobile, just like there are laws about who can and cannot own an airsoft gun. The analogy is a perfectly good one - you just don't like it, and/or don't understand it.

Finally, these are NOT toys - they are, as defined by the Canadian Firearms Centre (which SPECIFICALLY mentions Tokyo marui airsoft gun) Prohibited devices. Again, something you apparently do not know.

I'd suggest you spend some time reading and researching the apparently huge sum of knowledge that you admittedly don't know about this sport in Canada.

ps - can you at least spell my screen name right. It's just a respect thing, you know? Something the younger generation always struggles with....

Thank you Skruface thats exactly what i wanted to say. So who can read now...

[QUOTE=nizfizOn another note, what happens if an adult gets seriously injured at an airsoft field? He/she can sue too can't he?
[/QUOTE]

Not a bad question. Let me answer it. An adult can sign a waiver, and is subject to contributory negligence, voluntary assumption of risk defenses and the standard of care issue favours the defendant in cases where adults are injured.

None of which applies to minors. The legal risk to having a minor on an airsoft field is orders of magnitude higher. Damage awards for serious injuries to minors are also usually much higher.

Volunti anyone?

LD

Hes like batman but in the legal sense. Every time a thread about somethings legalities you pop up.

w/e, I understand. I don't/won't seek to break the rules. I give up.

You know... I've been thinking the exact same thing for quite a while.

+1 LawDog

Back to the topic...

Something really should be done about places (Such as Kuramae at Pacific Mall) selling airsoft guns to minors. As long as people continue to be unlawful in this manor, nobody wins. (Except of course those pricks that sell it to make a quick buck)

If a kid is serious about airsoft, he will understand what he needs to do to be able to play, he will understand that he may get turned away, and he won't bitch about it. There shouldn't be any of this talk about "turning away one good apple among thousands of rotted ones"...if the kid realy is a good apple, he'll come back with his parents, who will be in posession of the airsoft guns, and will remain at the game to supervise...or he'll wait until he's 18+ and won't have a problem with it.

Changing laws around won't help anything, imho, because people always find a way around it, and because of the nature of the sport (ZOMG, gunzzz FTW!!!11!) kids will always do stupid things. Adults will too, but at least then they're doing it legally and the responsability falls on them.

The best we can do is just refuse to play with kids, refuse to sell kids our guns and remind our friends/contacts about this fact.

To answer DEA.
First, thank you for posting, and thank you for making it clear that you too can get fooled.
The removal from the retailer list that I was suggesting is not something that would be done lightly. It would really suck to be removed because some kid lied to you or got a buddy to lie for them.
You, as a retailer, can only do so much. You can check the original buyer, but what happens later is out of your hands and not your fault. It cant be your fault.
If, however, a retailer became infamous for selling directly to minors (and there was documented proof of that), then I'd support a removal.

Still, it was not a practical idea; nobody can really check over a retailer's shoulder.

I just wish all newbies, of any age, would bother to read the Information section instead of doing anything stupid, but that has not happened yet.

Wow this thread got huge fast!

Majority of us retailers take the necessary steps to ensure that we're selling to people who are 18+ years of age.

Here at Specarms we have been requiring customers who buy Airguns (accessories don't apply) to fill out a Waiver and also to produce a valid picture ID. We do this for Online Customers across Canada and for the local walk-ins as well.

99% of people are fine with jumping through hoops. But when that 1% doesn't agree / or refuses to fax/email us their ID, then we know something is up ;)

But the bottom line, there are responsible underage people out there, and there are irresponsible of age people out there.

It's very difficult to filter out the people that we don't want to sell to.

Having just recently jumped through said fiery hoops, I can say that they'd probably deter most irresponsible parents. :lol:

incidents like the kid getting shot at his school in the US because he was usin a GBB to threaten police...not to mention, in bowmanville(near toronto), just a few months ago there was a GBB incident at a school.
We can all find piles of reason for underagers not to play.
But we get undragers comming here and wanting guns..when we say no, they mouth off and go buy one from a retailer.
I dont mind minors. One of the best people I play on the field with is a minor, but he came, read and earned respect. he didnt argue the rules. He proved himself and now buys and sells(and plays) regularly.

Id like to see retailers stick to the +18 more strickly. Minors can get guns, and they can get them here. earn the respect of people here and have someone sponsor them and buy stuff for them over ASC where it can be monitored.

Many of you are not understanding what I'm trying to say here.

first off, insurance is a moot point. Personally I think that would be up to the venue not the club to have correct? Where I play our club/s don't allow for minors to play with us, but the same venue where we play allows one night every two weeks for a club comprising of all people under age. (I think the organizer is the oldest at 16.

Second, what do either of those incedents that Droc spoke of have to do with letting underage people play the game? They have to do with stupid kids who have already aquired guns, it is completely irrelevant if they play in a club once a week or not. If anything the other members of the club would have instructed them of the dangers of these actions.

All I was saying from the very beginning is that if we turn away kids who already have guns, they WILL find other places to use them. Which is the whole problem!

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

I see what you are getting at. However, none of the "underaged rights" folks seem to be able to answer the question: "Why should a rational adult risk his house/car/income to allow minors to play?"

PS- the insurance question is never moot.

LD

Anyways, I just went to Kuramae earlier today with my gf.

Everything is still expensive as ever ($75 for a M16 mag) and they're still willing to sell airsoft to minors.

Pacific Mall irritates me.
-VM

I will admit to saying that people my age are morons (im 17 by the way) and I actually agree with what most of the adults are trying to say. If a place allows you to play under 18 then just act mature enough to allow the others in the future to be able to play under 18.

As well Airsoft is a Milsim game and the last time I checked 99.99% of all armed forces are 18+, so if some one says why cant I play under 18? ans: well you cant join the army, so why can you play a spin off mil sport.

I did however start at the age of 16 and I have been invited to play with clubs that have really strict age requirements just because of the maturity I have shown on the field. I to just last week got my first gun. Ive been part of this sport for 10 months, and it has treated me very well. And to say the least I really like alot of what greylocks posts for noobs because the best thing you can do is wait read and learn, and when you get the chance to prove maturity take it. Unlike playing in a park with no protection in the middle of the day, or waving a can tire pistol in front of a police station. The second one I have seen happen twice and that is why this sport needs a little protection from the morons.
sorry for making this long and hopefully this made sense.