PTW pricing to quality question
 

I've always wondered just what makes a PTW so damn expensive. Are they out-of-the-box better than every other AEG brands with heavy upgrades? Are they super accurate without the need and hassle of installing TBs and shimming this and upgrading that? Are their externals real steel? Are they any better than the best after-market metal body upgrades? Do they require only a fraction of maintenance needed for other high-end AEGs?
I've seen pictures of pimped out PTWs in the Media section. What exactly is the point? If it's just for looks, then okay. It's a waste, but PTWs don't exactly have many variant models. But if they are for performance and reliability, then that's honestly pretty damn dumb.
As far as being realistic, I'd still pick the sweet metal blow-back sounds and feels of GBBRs. Am I wrong in assuming PTWs still can't quite get out of the inherent sewing-machine sounds that plague AEGs in general?
In the end is it just blind brand-name-following? If I had 2k, I'd much rather buy the highest end GBBR and do some internal upgrades.
Thoughts?

There's about 3 years worth of threads on the PTW. Not all you could ever know about the PTW is contained in these forums though, most of what I learned came from years of working on them, tinkering, modding and using them.

A GBBR has it's uses, but nearly all the guys I know who have a PTW and a GBBR realize that each has it's strengths and limitations. A PTW requires far less maintenance thna any AEG or GBBR, and nearly all the maintenance of a PTW is in the cylinder. Short of a part failure which is exceedingly rare, there is no need to open the gearbox, and in fact, 200K+ rounds at 400+ FPS is quite common. Some of mine surely have surpassed 100K by now, even though they have moved on to new owners.

A GBBR requires cleaning of the moving components like any GBB, they suck in cold weather, and you have to use ammo plus propellant and be able to carry that with you. The PTW lack the recoil, but being battery operated offers it a wider climate range of reliable operation.

I wouldn't spend 2K on any GBBR, I'd put that into a PTW long before I got that far.

But I'm funny that way.

If I had 2k, I would go PTW, than GBBR

PTW is superior to gbbr, for mags, and performance, usable in winter time, and I can not justify that to get a little recoil.

That is the summarization of my opinion



PTWs perform very well, better than most aegs, and way better than any GBBR (internal gas) system out there.

Yes a quality GBBR is just as expensive as a PTW, however my fear is the maintenence of a GBBR and mags, (leaking, etc), quality Mags alone will cost a huge chunk of cash and your limited to 50 or 30rnd mags. On top of that, you will be parinoid that you may lost your mags when ever you do a mag change, cause that upgrade mag costs close to $80 or so.

PTWs, you can get 120rnd mags, or if you look hard enough, real caps. You have the option of cheap mags of $10, or systema brand ones of $50.

If I had 2K in the bank I'd go with Classic Airsoft.

You get pretty much the best of both worlds between a GBBR and a PTW. Only downside being external tank and line but not a big price to pay if you get those super light paintball tanks. AND you can refill off paintball fields' tanks or if you have a scuba tank one of those.

Other than that though, I'd go GBBR otherwise because I have a decent AEG already that I know will be able to be fielded so if the GBBR goes down I can switch. If I really had the money though I would go Classic Airsoft and PTW.

Sounds like it's mostly due to the advantage of reliability coupled with minimum maintenance required. That surely is a respectable reason to go for a PTW over other high-end AEGs and GBBRs.
GBBRs aside for a moment, what about high-end AEGs littered with aftermarket enhancements? Is a stock PTW still better in terms of performance and reliability compared to another high-end AEG with all the VERY best aftermarket internals? It seems that version of the AEG might end up hitting around the same cost as buying that stock PTW. Is there still a large gap in performance in reliability even then?
If I spent the same amount of money on another AEG, ending up with on-par internals, and a bonus of flashier external bling, wouldn't it make more sense to go that route? You get a better looking gun in the end. With the PTW you might have to spend hundreds more if you care about how it looks.

PTW takes the advantages that the AEG has over GBBR's and enhances them.

With an upgraded hop-up and motor, which I used to do, the PTW is rock-solid in performance and durability. This is tempered though by the fact that the PTW is an electronics-driven gun, and you don't want to go swimming with it. But, if you are spending big dollars upgrading an AEG, you'd be looking a Triggermaster or similar drive system, then same drawback applies. You can also use real uppers that no AEG can use, as well CNC billet lowers are available for the PTW.

You can make an AEG as accurate as a PTW.

You can have quick-change velocity feature in an some AEGs, same as a PTW.

You can make an AEG shoot as hot as a PTW.

You can make an AEG as miserly on battery power as a PTW.

But you can't make an AEG do all the things a PTW does at the same time for any money. And you will give up real dimensions and balance, as well as bolt-stop feature and real accessory compatibility across the board.

It is very easy to spend $5K on a PTW, about as easy as spending $5K pimping out an AR actually.

PTW's have their place with rich albertan airsofters, but for $2000 you can have a fully upgraded G&P M4 AEG, with a mosfet, that's reliable in the rain, fully upgraded with prometheus parts internally, over a dozen mags, and various external accessories.

My Magpul M4 is fully balls out loaded externally and internally, with mags, batteries and triggermaster it's still under $2600
And it doesn't short out in the rain :)

But PTW's REALLY don't like to get wet, as Jonas would tell you lol
But every other day of the week they work great

lol yea i know about them shorting out in the rain. but in our defense out of 100+ players on the otherside they only have 6 aegs left running lol\

i would way rather have the ptw over gbbr and aeg as im tired of breaking open, shimming and messing with my aegs. i dont know enough about gbbrs to comment, i do like em tho. but the leaky mags have stopped me from getting one. i know my ptw is going to work all day and not breakdown half way through. and if something goes wrong youll know before your day starts and its a matter of replacing a board or some component. i hated when an aeg would go down youd wonder what it may be hen youd start the treaasure hunt to find out what is, then getting compatible parts. mind you when a ptw goes down you start to sweat. an aeg is usually a 40-100$ fix. a ptw is a 50-300 fix and hard to diagnose.

but the accuracy and range, the feel, the sound (they dont sound like a sewing machine) the reasponse is unbeatable. esspecially out of the box. but getting an aeg to frenchys quality takes alot of knowledge, parts, money and experience. so each has theyre downfalls but its pretty rare a ptw owner regrets getting one theyre worth the money

The more expensive any AEG, PTW, or GBBR is the more "worth it" it is.

The catch is that they still have bugs that require money to be thrown at them/or they go down on the field.

If you can afford them they're worth it.

if you can't afford them it doesn't mean you should quit and go home. If that was the case everyone would open their wallets at the beginning of the day and the person with the most bucks would be declared top player and then you could stand around bullshitting for the rest of the afternoon.

I've always found that the rain issue has been overblown severely when it comes to PTWs. I have never had this issue, but do admit to doing some preventative maintenance on my rifle in the form of running a tube of chapstick along the edges of the lower and upper receiver where they meet. This seems to repel any water for the length of a game.

I have, on the other hand had AEGs go down because of the rain, but we're talking "raining elephants driving macktrucks" rain, and nobody's rifle worked after they became soaked. When your barrel is full of water, accuracy and hop go completely out the window.

Because PTWs still command (on average) pricetags above $2k, they can be out of the price range of the average player. I was fortunate enough to purchase a challenge kit for $1k from an american retailer who brought a truck load of AEGs etc across for a big game. Henceforth, I would be foolish to ever sell it as if I wanted another one down the road I would be losing money.

Anyone try the PTW Clones made by Celsius or are they that just bloody impossible to get your hands on :S ok I stepped on a line the PTW crew is gonna lynch me lolol

I don't think you'll get flamed over that, if anything the PTW enthusiast community would have loved a ready source of cheap, available spare parts. I certainly would love to be able to build a complete new upper (maybe spr etc) for use w/ a red cylinder, but the cost of ptw parts is prohibitive/availability it an issue.

I'm asking because I know Evike carries them in the US and I was wondering on picking one up for kicks ... I tend to have a bad habit of buying airsoft guns I don't need for really no purpose whatsoever since I hardly get out to the field let alone have time to chairsoft at home :P

I havent had issues using my PTW in the rain,and all my other AEG's have been sitting for the past 3 plus years since I'v bought my PTW. :)

PTWs were cool, a couple years ago.

Now, people are trying to unload them by the bundle in the classifieds and they're not selling well, even at steep discounts. They're old news.

Just buy a GBBR and an AEG. Covered for summer and winters, you've always got a backup, and GBBRs are a hell of a lot more fun than a PTW. Plus, buying an AEG and a GBBR is going to be cheaper.

The Celcius is/was a flop. They based their gun on the 2007 Gen 3 electronics, so they are susceptable to a spike killing the switch board. They also cloned the 490 motor, and cloned it's problems, but made it worse by cheaping out on parts.

There are more than a few guys who tried the Celcius on the PTW forums, and basically it is relegated to an emergency parts gun to make do until you get the Systema parts. Apparently, the quality of the parts is just awful, fit and finish and tolerances are terrible.

Ah righto, I was thinking more the externals, but fair point. I guess that highlights the usual reason sometimes items never make it to this market, the player base/free market speaks ;)

This was posted yesterday on the PTW forums:

I'm getting a G&P WOC M7A1, I hate how expensive the mags are, but it's an awesome gun

I love my PTW, it doesn't really like the rain (got it soaked at claybank, built up some carbon on the selector board, took 15min to fix) But other then that its been great and well worth the money.

I would totally take a PTW over any GBBR, all weather reliability, don't have to deal with weather problems, ive seen GBBRs start the day at 400fps, and by noon end up at 650fps.

I'm sure there's a good way to make the PTW's more waterproof
The weather is a major issue with GBBR's

And actually, atleast in the case of the WE M16, I found the joule rating to be very consistent using different weights of ammo. Despite the fact it shoots 570fps on.2s lol

I've never been let down by my AEGs but I ran a P90 and a M249, so the M4/M16 users might have it different.

To be completely honest though, SystemA priced the PTW as they did because they knew people would buy it. Hell SystemA could have priced it $6000 and the same people probably would have STILL bought it. It's a little sad really when the company still has to cut corners at the $2000 price point.

For Complete Detail Rant info:
See Here


Alright this is my show time woot!!!
Background info:
Own a PTW Gen IV Max
Own a G&P WOC (WOC13 M4 Steel Barrel) GBBR
Build and own a Prime-RA-Tech-G&P Magpul GBBR (one of those rare receiver in Canada, AFAIK only two are in Canada)
Build and own a G&P WOC Cansoft (WOC 16 M16 in Full auto) GBBR
own a Daytonagun AKS74U External Air GBBR (Now its converted to AKS74M)

Lets talk the easist one, Money
A GBBR depending upon quality will set you anywhere from 450 to 1500, but that's go with the standard WOC ($1040) which is what I would recommand for a Magna user or Standard KJW M4 (Approx. $800)
The magazine for Magna cost 45 for a G&P one or $50 for a Pro-Win, don't get anything other than those two as they are either too expensive/ heavy/ leaky/ unstable fps
KJW costs around $30.
Propane adapter cost around $25, 20lb Propane tank refiller adapter $25 (its worth it if you use GBBR as 20lb refill is alot cheaper than buying new 1lb everytime) And 3 propane tanks to get you started $15.

A PTW will set you back approx $1300 (used) to $2000 for new and battery cost approx $50 and charger $50. Then you need to replace the spring/ cylinder which is $20 for spring or $200 for cylinder. A mag cost $40 for a Systema or $30 for a Andax Works Lancer L5.

A Daytonagun (AK, ask Justin for the Ar-15 pricing) external air is gonna cost you $700 for a D-Boys Receiver or $800 for a LCT (these are scary realistic) and you need a regulator which cost around $150 as well as a tank CO2 ($40-$60)or HPA($150-$250) and the mag cost...around $10-$25 depending on the brand of AEG mags, G&P feeds supposedly the best which is $12 per pop

These are the price to begin with, assuming none of the gun or parts breakdown, a standard loadout of 6+1 mags the cost goes:
KJW Propane -Cheapest
Daytonagun External Air
G&P WOC Propane
Systema PTW Electric -Most Expensive

Now in terms of reliability...
Systema and Daytonagun are equal,
KJW is next with G&P WOC at the bottom

Soldier Firendly (Can you beat it, drag it through mud and sand)
Daytonagun is the best (I personally had mine Daytonagun buried in sand by accident in a game, besides ROF went from 800 to 650 it was mine. It took me an hour to clean all the sand out, it was literally everywhere, btw if you want to verify ask folks in Edmonton that attended Op Noobonia II they'll know)
Systema is next it loses in the fact without mod it's sensitive to moisture, if you toss it into the water, say goodbye to $300 worth of electronics
KJW is after due to the gas in mag is simply forbids tac reload and temperature will change the useability
G&P WOC is last simply it will destroy itself even under ideal condition.

In Terms of accuracy, out of the box,
PTW wins with Daytonagun (both has tightbore barrel 6.04mm and 6.03 respectively), then KJW (it has a M733 inner barrel in a M4 outer barrel) and WOC last (as it use a 210mm inner barrel to keep fps <380)

Noob-friendliness?
Right of the bat I'll say, I got G&P WOC13 first, Prime GBBR, PTW, WOC16, then Daytonagun and reading/ listening from user feedback.
G&P WOC- Good beginner choice if you are prepare to fix it
KJW M4 -Good beginner choice if you intend to mod it immediately to reduce fps via cradle airsoft fps reducer
Systema PTW -Good beginner choice if you don't mess or abuse with it. Money helps along the way
Daytonagun -Good beginner choice if you have a paintball tank already, this thing is basically baby proof. There's not alot of things you can do to make it stop shooting (destroying power source and/ or its relay system aka co2 tank and hose, run over with a tank, stick pointy end of BBQ sticks into the barrel as unjamming rod, flattening the nozzle) Any guns you want will stop shooting if you do what I mention above as well.

Pre-Game Upgrade requirement:
Systema PTW: Need to reduce the fps down via switching to M110/ M90 cylinder or spring (if you know how to change it)
KJW M4: Need to reduce the fps via cradle airsoft velocity reducer (~$30), full m4 length would be recommanded
G&P WOC: Doesn't need upgrade, I would suggest get a CQBR variant and keep inner barrel (especially tightbore) below 260mm or get NPAS (though those thing are will lead to replacement need as it self adjust as the vibration is too strong) I would recommand a Light weight Aluminium bolt carrier Element Light Weight, 5KU VLTOR, RA-Tech Lightweight, or Airsoft Surgeon VLTOR for gaming to increase gas efficiency from barely 1 mag into two in prowin (on auto) Spare nozzle or Aluminium nozzle would also be a good idea.
Daytonagun, NONE inner barrel is already tighbore, you can adjust fps via regulator

Finally there's someone that doesn't go
OM*G YOU HAVE TO HAVE A HOSE STICKING OUTTA YOUR GUN?!? AND CARRYING A F******G TANK? (BTW, in my last skirmish half the ppl didn't realize I was running external air until I start firing in auto as suppressive fire.

In Summary,
If you're Rich (Budget w/ $2500+) Get a PTW
If you're a tinkerer and a DIY fixer get a G&P WOC
If you're a fascist in realism get a KJW M4
If you are in between of all those above or not, get a Daytonagun


Oh btw, don't shoot External Air outside when sun sets, it's really really loud, I would say around 100dbs

hmm nuff said i guess. kullwarrior for the win! ding ding ding!

Possibly off topic, but what models does Systema produce? I know of M4/M16 and variants, and I've heard of MP5s but what else?

Better question, have they produced an AK yet?

Let see...
Gen 1 M16A3 ONLY
Gen 2... same
Gen 3 M4, CQBR, M16
Gen 4 MAX M4 CQBR M16, MP5 (Gen 3)
GEN 5 SUPER MAX M4 M16 MP5 (Gen 4 MAX)

yea real advancement eh?

As for AK, when pigs fly, they're making training guns for force on force swats and alike, afaik, no Police department issues (county ones you can buy your own, in some cases ak) AK or any variant prescribe in our lovely-retarded firearms act. Don't bring the What about OPFOR, afaik they don't care.

The MP5 is discontinued, and parts are no longer being produced.

Wow, so much for variety

Thats why I believe PTW is a dead end, they don't innovate, the last two years has been...
MAX and SUPERMAX by increasing velocity, and thats it.

I doubt it.

How many rifle variants does Colt produce? Bushmaster? LMT? Rock River?

There's a reason why many companies can exist producing the AR platform only. Systema obviously has for airsoft.

PTW is about as dead of an end as GBBR is.

How many AK's or MP5s or AUGs or G3 variants can I buy in Canada? None, they are all prohibited. But I can buy an AR, so it follows that my gear is set up for an AR and my airsoft gun would be an AR.

If one wants an MP5, AK, etc., you go buy that, but don't whine because Systema doesn't make one. They don't need to. There was no market for their MP5, so they cancelled it. They sell AR variants like crazy.

Funny.

My main point is that they haven't make any major improvement since two years ago aside from listening to 1 out of 1000 tackleberry's demand for a fix and making higher fps cylinder.

As for firearms, look into firearms produced past 2000, you can own
Robarm XCR, Bushmaster ACR, CZ858, G36 (yes G36, not Stinky Long 8 aka SL8) Tavor etc

The Mp5 lost imho beacuse it did not feature the bolt rack to reset the stop firing mechanism.

Ya, the PTW is a terribly overpriced gun and anyone can make a PTW killer by adding a higher spring, a tightbore, and lipo to any cansoft gun. I think people should steer clear of them.

If more people were interested in them the price would drop significantly, I'm not kidding, right now it's all being hand-made and you literally have to line up to get one unless you're fortunate for somebody to forfeit their order.

As for Canada, I would say 1300-1600 depending on the model. If you want Justin to build you a custom gun it'll cost more.

For example, instead of having the DG M4 built from the Dboys/BOYI body you have it done from a G&P it would be the cost of the gun in Asia plus the internals but you'd have a unique gun.

If you have time and are willing to invest it will pay off if you go the Classic Airsoft route.

I know the market jacks up the value of SystemA PTWs if it weren't for that I'd recommend it for sure. Hopefully they'll fix the moisture issue down the road and possibly even add a blowback system XD.

rar

Yes, just like I can drop a Ferrari engine in a Dodge Neon and make a car that's just as good.....right.

I'd like to know your secret...:rolleyes:

An AR is an AR is an AR...beyond the cosmetic distictions, it's what propells your BB's the furthest, fastest, most reliably - ultimately this is what counts.

Great post KullWarrior - I like your KPI's and categorizations.

You forgot the sarcasm smiley.

I get to hear this same BS comment almost every game so I have embraced the words! I never understand these posts....how can someone comment on what something is worth?? For me a gun that works when I open the case and plug the battery in is worth whatever I have to pay, period.

If someone has been lucky and has experienced other platforms with trouble free playing then that works for them. All I know is I know a lot of guys that say their gun only cost xxx amount but I also always see them replacing parts.

Hahaha. Nice;). This coming from the guy with the most dialed in one I know:salute:


I've had mine for two years. I play a lot (At least twice a month on avg.), the only thing I've had done is the motor and hop up worked on, I've had a reliable gun game after game. It's worth the money and you don't have to be a rich Albertan to own one.

The chicken and egg question is "is it worth all the worth it threads"?

ive had mine for 4 years now i believe use it every weekend at our local games and its gone down on me twice, first time was the motor needed the tackleberry/ macguyver treatment, second time was due to a shitty airsoft surgeon board that failed. reinstalled my origional board and no problem. thats a pretty damn good record. i know an aeg cant say that as pistons gears and trigger blocks all strip blow or fry

So, to put it simply, a PTW is a great noob gun, since you don't have to do anything to it to keep it running.

Not my cup of tea. And I prefer trademarks/tinkering with my gun.

A GBBR is more realistic than a PTW in my mind.

there is no need to bitching around for the ptw, its all depends on how you play the game.If you have the need for a PTW, you can afford and willing to pay for it, then it worth every penny.every gun has pros & cons, It's all about personal preference, others has no right to judge its worthy or not but yourself.

I own both PTW and GBBR systems, and here's my commentary based on either of them:

If I want to use a gun that will always work, shoots accurately with awesome range and consistently with minimal misfeeds, I use my PTW.

If I want to use a gun that has realistic action and I don't care as much for the accuracy, range, and feeding reliability of a PTW... then I'll use a GBBR. Simple as that.

GBBR's are very nice to use and hold and to fiddle with the controls, but as far as skirmishability goes, a PTW will far surpass a GBBR in terms of many performance characteristics.

Brian your post is arguably the most concise, well worded out of this whole thread. I too own both systems (PTW '07 M4, INO SV M4 2010) and agree with your assessment.

Word is the KJ GBBR's have excellent range and accuracy, the only thing that's always bugged me is the temperature differential affecting the consistency, especially in Manitoba since we play from -5 to +40

i dont know about GBBR vs PTW, but my KJW M4 is more gameable than most of my AEGs accuracy and range wise..